Do You Believe What's Called "The Prosperity Gospel" is:

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Results

Absolutely Biblical (13%)

Good Intentions, but It's Gotten Off Base (32%)

Not Exactly Orthodox, but Still Biblical (7%)

Erroneous Teaching (27%)

Heresy (21%)

By Christian (not verified) on January 10, 2008 - 2:53pm

Isn't heresy by definition teaching that is in error?

By Phil on January 10, 2008 - 4:19pm

Well, I'm trying to gracious here.... :-)

By Anthony Peterson (not verified) on January 16, 2008 - 7:08pm

Perhaps it might help if you define what you mean by "prosperity gospel" - so much comes under that label.

By tm (not verified) on January 16, 2008 - 7:24pm

Taken from the all knowing Wikipedia....

Prosperity theology, also known as prosperity doctrine or the Prosperity Gospel, is the doctrine that prosperity, particularly financial prosperity, and success in business or personal life is external evidence of God's favor. This favor may be preordained, or granted in return for efficacious prayer or merit-making.

By Zach Nielsen (not verified) on January 16, 2008 - 7:59pm

Heresy is historically understood as a belief that renders you no longer a Christian and can send you to hell.

zach

By Elizabeth Conley (not verified) on January 16, 2008 - 9:19pm

Whether you call it heresy or "mildly flawed doctrine" some of it is very bad news.

Adam and Eve were placed in the world as the seed and expression of God. Just as dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God has little gods. Seed remains true to its nature, bearing its own kind. When God said, "Let us make man in our image," He created us as little gods, but we have trouble comprehending this truth. We see ourselves as "little people" with very little power and dominion. Until we comprehend that we are little gods and we begin to act like little gods, we cannot manifest the Kingdom of God. Earl Paulk

A seemingly minor confusion, one would think. What's the big difference between a humanity created by God in his image and a humanity that is the natural offspring of God? Perhaps it sounds like a "disputable matter". Perhaps it is, but what might the consequences be?

"Because he said, you know, the adultery issue was for the little ones. It was for the - the people, the, you know, commoners. It wasn't for people who God elevated and trusted with special things like this, relationships like this. And that's the way he explained it to me." Mona Brewer

The idea that through magical thinking one can belong to a class of people for whom social contracts do not apply is usually held by criminals and malignant narcissists.

Better educated people than I can debate as to whether these flawed doctrines are heresies or disputable matters. I'll just state that they're serious trouble.

By Christian (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 11:04am

I'm sorry I took some people off track with the heresy topic. I was just having fun and I think Phil responded appropriately.

On the issue of the "Prosperity Gospel," I think it is important to look at the teachings that back up the theology. Everything we read in scripture should be understood in light (or view) of the rest of the story. This is a proper hermaneutic. The "Prosperity Gospel" takes part of the story and ignores the rest: blessing is not balanced by suffering, the temporary is not balanced by the eternal, the physical is not balanced by the spiritual.

Anecdotally, every time I have heard a preacher that believes in the prosperity doctrine, his hermaneutic and exegesis has been outright wrong. Scripture is twisted, mangled, abused, and forced into this belief system because the starting place is the Prosperity doctrine, not the text.

Btw, Phil, how would you answer that poll?

By Phil on January 17, 2008 - 11:18am

I answered the poll with "Good intentions, but it's gotten off base." What began as the Word of Faith/Seed Faith/Prosperity message, was the good-intentioned idea of taking the church away from the "poor is me" mentality. I grew up a pastor's kid in the South when the church prayed that if God would keep the pastor humble, they'd keep him poor. People didn't have a concept of God being a good God, and assumed that Christianity was about suffering, being without, and lack. So the origins were noble. However, it was quickly latched onto by preachers who needed a good excuse to raise money 24/7, and who took it WAY too far to the extreme. Plus, a new generation of well-intended but uneducated pastors and ministry leaders took the concept, and along with a flawed understanding of scripture, twisted it beyond all recognition. Today, it's swung to the far end of the spectrum and in my opinion, we need to stop, take a deep breath, lose the ego, and re-evaluate the scriptures in light of tradition, orthodoxy, and balance.

By Leslie I T Assih (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 11:20am

Bullseye!!! Rightly stated.

By Elizabeth Conley (not verified) on January 18, 2008 - 8:43am

Thank you for this post. I have strong objections to the Word-Faith doctrine. You've helped me to see that what I object to so strongly sprang from good intentions. You're right, Christians, particularly pastors, aren't more virtuous if the live a virtual vow of poverty.

You've also helped me to see that heresy is a strong term that is more likely to offend than convince. For that reason, I'll try to avoid using the word in the future.

I feel strongly, because think doctrine matters. To me, that's the good news...

...and the bad news!

The good news is that good teaching from the pulpit really can help people live well and enjoy an increasingly closer walk with God. The bad news is that bad teaching from the pulpit really can land people in the pit of despair.

So the shenanigans of self- absorbed showmen "pastors" get on my nerves. The twisting of Bible verses to justify their malfeasance makes me cranky (on a good day)! I apologize for coming across as intolerant.

By Bart Breen (not verified) on January 18, 2008 - 12:02pm

I think I used to work for the same Church as your Dad ......

I don't think the intentions were bad.

When you look at the scope of scandal and disgrace to the body of Christ combined with the resultant theology that has pretty much sold out to that which will appeal to the basest motives of its audience, combined with Biblically twisted teaching that in some places appeals to us becoming like gods ourselves, I think heresy is a very good and very accurate word.

Heresy is not a term to throw around lightly and certainly even orthodox ministries have failings and scandals.

I applaud Christianity Today for having the guts to use the term in reference to the Health and Wealth gospel, however. It is so far from and in many places contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus.

It may have started with good intentions and some necesssary balance, but it has gone so far out of balance that I think heresy is an appropriate term, if not for the whole movement, at least for the more extreme factions of it.

By tm (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 11:13am

@ Christian

Certainly... all you have to do is look at Job. By Biblical standards he was pretty much living the perfect Godly life and very prosperous for it. But then you know what happens. And it had nothing to do with him. I'm very honestly curious as to how prosperity preachers discuss this specific instance in the Bible. Does anyone know?

By AmeriKan, aka Phil (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 1:25pm

Many WOF people would not take the time and space to do what I have done on this site. A previous poster said they did not "want answers" but, Christian, maybe you were once like myself, seeking...and someone turned me in the right direction and the WOF message changed our (my wife and I) lives in a wonderful way. I have seen error on both sides, from Methodism and fundamentalism to pentecostal and charismatic. I never threw the baby out with the bath water, on either.

I could easily give you the WOF perspective/teaching on Job here in a nutshell but I get the suspicion it would not be readily received or even politely acknowledged. Most to the left of middle, care not to know. To any reader, seeker of truth or just honestly curious, I will encourage you to visit Faith Library Publications, www.rhema.org and there you will find the Job question, answered, and many of the other "fallacious" teachings of the WOF. "God wanting His people blessed and prosperous," is just one little "blip" of what they have in their library.

Just one little hint...at the end of those few months of Job's life, he had more than he started with....

By Carl (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 7:57pm

Then again, Peter obeyed God and got crucified upside down. I'm reminded of Ron Sider's quote: "It is heresy, particularly common in rich nations, to think that wealth and prosperity are always a sure sign of righteousness. They may be the result of sin and oppression, as in the case of Israel. The crucial test is whether the prosperous are obeying God's command to bring justice to the oppressed."

By Christian (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 8:00pm

AmeriKan

I do not question your, or any other persons, faith in Christ (lest your actions show that you are not in Christ according to Scripture). However, teachers (and preachers and leaders) have a tremendous responsibility. I recognize it is not my job to lambast every Christian teacher I disagree with (God will judge us all in the end), but I do have a responsibility to teach others correctly.

My particular heritage has a saying (I don't know if it's original to us or not), "In essentials unity, in opinions, liberty, in all things love." To that end I appreciate your willingness to dialogue and praise God for every person that comes to and is in Christ.

By chad michael (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 11:51am

I love what Jesus told his disciples in John 16. He said that they'd have trouble in this world but that through Him (and I would add Him alone) they would have peace. He then said to take heart because He has overcome the world. How silly must the "prosperity gospel" look to those Christians in other parts of the world where they're being persecuted for their love of Jesus. The Americanized prosperity gospel doesn't hold up there. It doesn't matter if you name it, claim it, grab it, blab it. There's a good chance they're going to die for their faith. But as Jesus always does, He gives hope. "Don't worry" He says, "for I have overcome the world." To me, this "prosperity gospel" breaks down when you view it globally as opposed to in our little Americanized Christian bubble.

By Anthony Peterson (not verified) on January 17, 2008 - 7:36pm

I think Christ calls us to be like him. Theres not one iota of selfishness in him. In my opinion that where the prosperity message has got off track. When it becomes all about "my ministry" then the you end up sounding like Brittany Spears "Gimme Gimme..."

I believe that God does want to bless us, he does not want us to starve, be sick or be so poor we cant help anyone. I think this is a reasonable conclusion given that Jesus came to show us the Father. If we have seen Him we have seen the Father.

However, I also believe God wants us to grow up.

Jesus willingly lay aside all the riches in Heaven and came to Earth just to save me. He wants us to be so consumed with love that we would freely choose to suffer whatever it takes to save the world.

By Mary Hutchinson (not verified) on January 18, 2008 - 7:49am

It seems to me that many of the so-called prosperity guys do a great job of teaching that you should give and what God's Word promises if you do.

But here is the disconnect--why is it I am supposed to give to them?

There are great ministries who are doing great work and deserve and need me to plant my seed THERE. But these guys teach what they teach and point the offerings to themselves.

Bob Tilton is a great example. He has an insight on one chapter of the Bible. Then he drives people to give $1000 to him. But what is he doing with the money? Teaching other people that one chapter and to give him $1000.

The hungry are not being fed, souls are not being reached, the church is not caring for the flock.

Its not the teaching that is wrong--as I see it -- it is how and where we are directed to give after we hear it.

By AmeriKan, aka Phil (not verified) on January 18, 2008 - 6:13pm

Christian, Mary and others slightly interested. :-) When you mention, Bob Tilton, he is a red flag across the board...even in WOF circles. I could give you some notorious names in the Methodist church, too. I do agree, as in the Tilton case, that some have severely misrepresented the WOF teachings. The last time I looked, "The just shall live by faith," "All things are possible to them that believe, " and "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you," are still in the Bible.

I have been a member of a WOF church for 13 years and closely associated with the movement for many more years...over 30. The WOF churches I have either been a member of, visited or attended their conferences have been anything but what I have read by the Change Revolution "contributors." Mary, your, "the hungry are not being fed, souls are not being reached, the church is not caring for the flock." This statement by itself, is a "heresy" of its own kind...because it is unequivocally baseless and untrue. I have observed and participated in just the opposite within the WOF for years. Just as people, "do what they want to do," they "see what they want to see" and I am not here to convince, anyone, otherwise. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Victory Christian Center in Tulsa, OK., is a model WOF church. I mention it because some of you are familiar with VCC. This is a congregation that ministers to 17,000 weekly with a two-year Bible Institute and Foreign Missions program, as well. They have an enormous outreach to the city of Tulsa through their Dream Center, Bus Ministry and Food Pantry. I have not begun to give the full picture of what they have accomplished. I know Phil and others are familiar with VCC, though I never hear them echoing these accolades or espousing/endorsing their statement of faith and/or teachings. VCC is one of hundreds of similar type WOF churches doing wonderful works for the kingdom of God.

Thankyou Christian for your sincere comments. I challenge, anyone...take the WOF test...like I/we did. We travelled to and attended one of their conferences to see and hear what the "real truth" was about the WOF...not via second-hand, trickle-down voices which have sought to defame and distort.

By Phil on January 18, 2008 - 8:35pm

While Billy Joe has built a large church, I think the 17,000 might be more applicable to his Word Explosion events, and not typical of weekly numbers.

By AmeriKan, aka Phil (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 7:32am

In VCC's December 21, 2007, ministry letter, the exact number was "17,761- Active membership of Victory Christian Center."

FYI...anyone inquiring...a couple of other great WOF churches are Resurrection Fellowhip in Loveland, CO and Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, MO...check out their websites.

By Bart Breen (not verified) on January 18, 2008 - 9:39pm

If someone were to have attended ORU, attended Victory Christian Center, read a great deal of literature about it and came to the conclusion that much of WOF teaching and ministery were shallow and focused upon particular elements of human appeal rather than the total scope of Christ's teaching, would that make that person a "second-hand trickle down voice" or would they simply just have to disagree with you?

Just wondering.

By AmeriKan, aka Phil (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 8:07am

Disagreement and even confrontation are no problem...and I realize there will always be opposing opinions. It is the (WOF) truth we are after. I am happy you "attended ORU" and "attended VCC." My daughters and I/we both witnessed students who actually attended/graduated from ORU who left with more negatives than positives....a "given" in any institution...though not the rule at ORU. I am sorry to hear that you did not have more positive experiences at either ORU or VCC.

"Total scope of Christ's teaching." Doesn't appear that you have read and studied too many, if any, of Kenneth Hagin's writings. His "total scope of Christ's teachings" is quite impressive and exhaustive...see Faith Library Publications at www.rhema.org

By Bart Breen (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 9:31am

Then why not address the issue instead of making these back-handed personal attacks belilttling those who disagree with you?

By Mary Hutchinson (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 10:20am

Amen, Bart!

By Bart Breen (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 11:33am

By the way, I did not say I had a negative experience at ORU or VCC.

Why is it necessary for you to attempt to twist my words and positions in this manner?

Believe it or not, it is entirely possible for someone to come to conclusions as to the scriptual accuracy of a theological position absent positive or negative experiences with the institutions involved.

You might be surprised to find that a majority of ORU graduates do not go on to participate in WOF churches. Before the late 80's when there was a deliberate move toward the WOF movement which ORU was always close to, but not formally tied to, the Seminary was a feeder into the United Methodist Conference and Oral Roberts was a United Methodist elder. The under-graduate Biblical department was comprised at the time I completed a degree in Biblical Literature, of a professors from various denominational backgrounds.

Oddly enough, it wasn't until the school made a deliberate move toward the WOF mavement and accordingly, at least in the Seminary, as they cleaned house and brought in professors and a dean who supported the WOF movement explicitly that the Seminary lost it's accreditation.

Coincidentily enough, it was in this time and the time shortly following it that many of the leadership and fiscal decisions made with regard to the school and the badly failing City of Faith which ultimately closed after millions of dollars of continued investment and took with it in the process several of the graduate schools present at that time which are no longer open.

Some of the most ironic moments I spent as a student at ORU were some very awkward exegesis classes following Chapels in which certain passages were used as base texts by visiting speakers, (Fred Price, Jim Baker, John Wesley Fletcher for example) and questions raised by myself and other students at times resulted in a quick walk through the passage in the original Greek and explanations as to why the point made in the chapel sermon just heard was out of context and foreign to the text.

An examination of the WOF movement doesn't automatically result in its acceptance, nor should it. It like any other system of scriptural interpretation requires prayerful examination, study and Biblical exegesis.

I'm certainly not prepared to write off the whole movement, but there's no question in my mind that there are serious questions as to several elements of it and that the practical impact of it upon the entire body of Christ has not all been positive.

By Mary Hutchinson (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 8:42am

You misrepresent what I wrote.

Indeed after travel to a dozen third world countries, let me tell you, there is much hunger and death in the world that would not be there if Christians gave as God commanded us to give.

I agree with the scriptures the WOF movement is built on. 100%. What I don't agree with is where we should sow our seeds.

Tilton is the poster boy for this--he teaches the truth--but then twists the pitch to move the viewer to give to HIM to see the promised blessings of God's Word.

That is wrong.

By AmeriKan, aka Phil (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 10:22am

Mary, I could not agree with you more on Tilton...he by no means represents the whole. I am very familiar with the overseas/missions of many of the WOF, ie., Rhema and VCC missions...impressive at the least. I further agree that the body of Christ at large needs to be doing more benevolence and helping relieve world hunger and poverty. In my local church (A/G) alone, our missions giving was 30% of our total disbursements for 2007. This is typical of the A/G globally. Missions, benevolence and disaster aid are a large part of what, "they are about." We must concentratate on the greater good that is being accomplished, rather than the lesser extremes.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

By Mary Hutchinson (not verified) on January 19, 2008 - 10:40am

Thank you AmeriKan. I have great respect for the Hagins, they are former clients and I consider them friends. I have been A/G and have great respect there as well.

By george watts (not verified) on May 24, 2008 - 4:12pm

Bart Breen - I am putting words into your mouth because you seem to be stating:

As someone who attended ORU, attended Victory Christian Center, read a great deal of literature about it and I came to the conclusion that much of WOF teaching and ministry were shallow and focused upon particular elements of human appeal rather than the total scope of Christ's teaching!

By Bart Breen (not verified) on May 25, 2008 - 3:53am

"Guilty" as charged.

By george watts (not verified) on May 29, 2008 - 6:23pm

I am glad we are on the same page and suggest you check out coming out of deception

http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/todd-bentley-and -the-florida...

By Bart Breen (not verified) on May 29, 2008 - 9:13pm

I'm not sure we're entirely on the same page but I am somewhat skeptical of Ministries which appear in great part to contribute more to the wealth of the Leader than the followers.

By george watts (not verified) on June 1, 2008 - 4:06am

PROV 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

It quite a big lie that Richard and Oral Roberts have been talking about prosperity and not having it?

Ever since Oral defended Jim Bakker in 1987 and Richard Roberts defended Dan Strader the son of Pastor Karl Strader they have been financially in trouble!

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060616 /NEWS/606160330

If the scoundrel Kenneth Copeland with all his prosperity teachings and lack of accountability is still associated with ORU then nothing will really change with ORU because they are not dealing with the root problem of being prosperity oriented rather than Christ oriented

http://www.star-telegram.com/national_news/story/672103.html