20/20 On TV Evangelist Salaries And Perks: What Is Enough?
Recently, the ABC news magazine program “20/20” did a
story featuring reporter John Stossel asking “Are the salaries and perks
of some major TV evangelists enough?” He showed video footage of the
expensive real estate holdings of one Christian TV network, and talked
about the hundreds of millions in their bank accounts. He also had footage
of a prominent Bible teacher’s lavish lakeside home outside Dallas. But
the most shocking was actual footage from Pastor Fred Price’s own
television program, where Fred himself bragged about his 25 room mansion, a
$6 million yacht, a private jet, a helicopter, and 7 luxury automobiles.
When is enough, enough?
It’s a legitimate question, and we have to start with the difference
between a “for- profit” and “non-profit” organizations. Generally,
the United States government has designated non-profit status for
organizations doing works for the public good. That includes museums, soup
kitchens, educational organizations, churches, and ministries. Among other
things, non-profits don’t pay corporate taxes, which allows them to use
their funding for their good works in the community.
It’s different with a for-profit company who is funded by the sale of
widgets. People put down their money, take home their widget, and everybody
is happy. While there are plenty of governmental regulations for private
companies, they’re not necessarily required to tell the public how they
spend their money.
But with non-profits, like churches and ministries, that release from
corporate taxation comes with a assumption of transparency. If people give
you money to accomplish the goal of the organization, those people have a
basic right to know how that money is being spent. Further, when most
Christians give, they believe their money is going to accomplish a mission,
like water wells in Africa, building orphanages, buying broadcast airtime,
or building a Bible school. Most don’t expect that money to go toward the
ministry leader’s yacht, luxury car, or mansion.
I’m the first person to defend the use of private jets for global
ministry. One of the negative aspects of mass media is the creation of
celebrity culture, and it even effects religious leaders. Just try getting
Billy Graham, Joyce Meyer, or Joel Osteen through a busy airport without
getting mobbed by well-wishers and admirers. Plus, one estimate reported
that when a high level business leader switches to private air travel, it
reduces stress, and adds as much as 7 years to their life span, and
increases their efficiency and productivity significantly.
However, for a regular pastor or ministry leader at a small to medium
sized ministry, red flags should go up immediately. Every year for the last
10 or 15, I’ve averaged more than 100,000 miles a year in air travel.
Year before last, I traveled almost 250,000 miles. I recently looked at
every possible option to fly privately, but discovered it was simply too
expensive. If that’s the case for me, then it’s the case for most
ministry leaders – some of whom are bankrupting their churches and
ministries with their ego.
I also believe in excellent salaries – especially for those rare and gifted people who can successfully manage and lead major churches and ministries.
The greatest issue here is perception. Even if you believe a pastor
or ministry leader deserves a $6 million yacht, or a $20 million jet, do we
ever consider how that impacts our witness to the world? It’s one thing
when Enron executives abuse their financial authority. How much more
embarrassing and damaging is it when a pastor or ministry leader appears to
abuse their financial responsibility?
And before you defend leaders with scriptures like “Touch not mine
anointed” or “Judge not,” take another look at the context of those
scriptures. The Bible is very clear that we are to be held accountable for
our actions within the Church, so that our witness to the world will not be
compromised.
Many of these ministries respond with "We're complying with IRS regulations." Great, but secular businesses do that. Shouldn't we as believers reach for a higher standard?
Fortunately, a new generation of emerging church pastors don’t seem
to have the desire to be wildly rich. One mega-church pastor I know drives
a Chevy, and another lives on a farm. There seems to be a sea-change in
priorities for this generation of ministry leaders, and I wonder if one day
we’ll look back on the previous generation with pity and some
embarrassment at the financial excesses we see today.
I believe the answer is to start asking tough questions before we give.
The day of unbridled riches being heaped on ministry leaders should be
over. Let’s get back to our mission, and focus our giving to ministries
who are clearly doing their job.
In a media driven culture, perception is just as important as reality. I
would call upon pastors and ministry leaders to stop wasting so much
airtime trying to defend their lavish lifestyles, and consider how that
looks to a critical world, and how much it damages our witness.
Let’s renew our commitment to mission, not money.
Has anyone ever stopped to think that Fred Prices quote was taken out of context? Wow, I'm shocked because I go to Fred Prices church and I've worked on projects with Phil Cooke for Fred Price. I just knew he would have my pastors back knowing him like I thought we did. Well let me help all of you who think my pastor is bootleg and taking money from our donors to have 7 cars, a yacht, a helicopter and a 25 room manison - he doesn't have those things. He was doing an illustration and instead of 20/20 or John Stossel calling him or taking the time to investigate the clip they simply played that one line. You must think all of his members are retards. Why would we follow someone who is taking our money so he can keep buying material things. He is on TV for crying out loud so how is the TV time getting paid for if he is so greedy and going shopping every week!! And Phil knows him so I am shocked he is not defending him. It's amazing how quick the church will turn on you without asking if something is true or not. After over 50 years in ministry you would think this man of God deserves some respect. For goodness sake, 20/20 has only been on the air since 1978. Dr. Price has been teaching the bible to people and getting them saved through his church and ministry before any of these entities were even in existence! How scary that everyone has decided them and ministry watch are the authority, judge and final say on the ministries listed. I am truly outraged and disgusted!
Great response Stephanie. I didn't accuse Fred of anything, just remarked on his comments, which you have to admit were remarkable. Illustration? Great. Can you give us more of the context?
Yes I can. It's an older series, but the gist was this: "I have a 25 room mansion, a yacht, a helicopter and 7 luxury cars. But at the same time my wife is making out with the gardner and my kids are all on drugs. Wouldn't you agree that is bad success?" He further goes on to tell us what is "good success," all those same things but you're happily married and your kids are well adjusted, and so on." It was a series in regard to prosperity and I think it totally changes that comment around. I am just so annoyed that John Stossel played that piece without getting the full story. I think it is a travesty. Thank you for asking me about the context and sorry for being so irritated in my initial response, I felt like you were assauting Dr. Prices character because so many others are right now. I think John Stossel needs to play the whole clip and apologize to Dr. Price. Many people who could come to know God via our ministry may now be turned off based on a lie. I called, e-mailed, faxed and am tempted to go down in person and let ABC know they need to fix this. Again, thank you for asking.
I'll tell you this - if you get the TV guys to send me the full video clip, I'll post it here, and send it to Stossel. If he needs to be held accountable, let's do it!
I am looking through my own personal collection now and I will also see if I can get the clip from the church. Being talked about is one thing but being lied about is another. I appreciate the support and I'll keep you posted. I should be able to locate it by weeks end.
The clip has been located. If I can get a copy, how can I get it to you?
Please view this clip posted on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kPsLQYzFvU. This clip clearly displays that Dr. Price's teaching was disected for the benefit of the John Stossel's ignorant report.
OOh Phil, I beg to differ with you on your comments being so innocent. When I read your remarks I felt like you too were fueling the fire. Especially using the phrases "the most shocking thing..." and "Fred bragging about,,," Stephanie was right to jump down your throat and anyone else's! How dare you jump on board with the haters. You supposedly know Fred from having worked with him at the church. How could you question his integrity? You owe Stephanie an apology and you owe your readers an addendum to your comments. You should add "even though this was said about Fred Price, I know him to be of the utmost integrity and we need to hear the whole story!" How about that for undergirding the man of God. Check your heart bro!
I find Stephanie's comments on Phil's article very interesting. I think the article was overall very balanced and even if Phil was wrong and that Fred Price's comments had been taken out of context, I thought Stephanie, who says she's a member of Fred Price's church was going to set the record straight. But no. Instead what we get is 'shock' at the fact that someone had dared to criticise her pastor. Stephanie seems to argue that just because a person has been in ministry for over 50 years and has been around longer than most of us, they are untouchable. She also adds that 20/20 (I have no idea what kind of programme that is) has only been in existence since 1978. Implication? They are not old enough to criticise. I have to say I have been very disappointed with Stephanie's comments because I found no argument refuting what Phil talked about. It's all about appeal to experience, emotion and some kind of misinterpreted biblical injunction. She confuses criticism with judgment and accuses the author and other organisations for passing judgment on Fred Price. Maybe what Stephanie doesn't know is that all ideas are not equal and criticism of ideas is important if we are to move forward as human beings and avoid the kind of disaster that Jim Jones, for instance, visited on the world. To criticise is not to disrespect. I think Fred Price has done a lot of godly work and deserves his due but if some of his ideas are found to be theologically inaccurate, we need to, in the words of Karl Popper, stop deferring to great men and have the courage to criticise those ideas. If Phil had said Fred Price was a bad person or he was going to hell, that would have been a judgment because he would have been directing his criticisms not at the ideas but the person and only God has the right to do that. I don't know Stephanie but her 'argument' is very symptomatic of the spirit of anti-intellectuallism that pervades the Charismatic church in particular that substitues emotionalism for rational discussions and arguments. Good work Phil and a fair warning to christendom.
I am seriously disturbed by anyone who would attack a man of God and especially without having all the facts. The media always get's half the story and then the people run with it. Dr. Price happened to have been making an illustration. You are welcome to call the church and order a copy of the original lesson.I'm sure 20/20 has the whole tape. They chose to play the part they wanted to play and try to discredit an amazing man. It is time for Christians to stand up for our ministers. We should boycott 20/20 until they run a retraction with the full message he taught that day. They are already in the process of putting a retraction on the ABC website, but that's not enough.When hurricane Katrina came the Church's were the first to respond. The chuches gave millions and they are still giving. There are many other way the mistries are helping in our communities and giving back. Who is willing to tell that story.It is okay for people who play sports to have lot's of money and drive luxury cars and have mansions. God has given us the ability to get wealth. I don't care if my man of God has 10 mansion, 10 Jets and Helicopters. Whatever the ministry needs or desire to have to promote the Word odf God I will do my part to give it. My life is wonderfully blessed because of what my man of God sews into my life and I will keep sewing into his as well as other ministries. What would you give to have Peace, Joy, Wholeness in every area of your life? Don't get me wrong it's not just about money, but if you read the bible Jesus alway's asked people to give and they did. He never lacked anything. God Bless
I agree with Tina whole heartedly. God blesses those who follow his commandments and that goes for any of us, ministers or those of us in the pews. In addition she mentioned Hurricane Katrina and through Fred Prices ministry we gave lots of money, we went down in person and distributed clothes (a lot of them brand new that were purchased just for those in New Orleans), food, school supplies, toys and Walmart gift cards to close to 500 families. No Media was there and I don't think any newspapers covered it either. In addition we had a crusade and many people who were hopeless got saved. It was an awesome experience but how sad we never see news like this. I was not able to get a hold of the DVD to send to this site but yesterday the clip was run at both CCC West and CCC East. It is so disturbing to see the two clips back to back. I don't know if ABC would ever want to show the clip because if they do then John Stossel will look very very bad to everyone. It will show that he lies and that he is willing to discredit a servant of the Lord to do it. People will wonder can they ever trust him again and in my mind I know at any time, any of his reports could be false based on what he did to Pastor Price. God will not stand for this though so the truth will come out. I can't wait to see how God does it.
As I said before, send me the clip, and not only will I post it here, but I'll personally send it to John Stossel. If Fred has been mis-represented, people need to know.
You are truely a proverbs 31 woman. In the midst of persecuion you stick by the man of God. amazing. Wish there were more like you around.
I'm only 22 but been watching FKP since 19(& 1/2) and actually came to LA (from london) last year (Aug 06) just to see him in action.
I bumped into him in the car park after a tuesday night study while he was getting into his bentley (white with 20 inch chrome rims). I said to him, "nice car, thats prosperity" he said "Its not too bad" I laughed my head off. The guy was humble as ever. No security or ushers around him and he pastors a 15k member church in Crenshaw!!! My church, the head oversear (Prophet) rolls with like a 5 man entourage and it has only 200 ppl.
I'm with Fred on this one. Fred jr outlined the whole thing yesterday. Christians are supposed to live abundantly, why do you thing the new jersualem had SOLID gold roads. This lifes prosperity is a prelude of that to come.
Oh and about Fred's bentley, better the preacher drive it who will pray for you when your sick than a drug dealer who sells crack to your kids!!!
I wonder why they accuse fred of these heresies. I'd love to see their bank statement to see if their bills are paid and they are debt free coz it seems to me like they have not got what freds got and are jealous.
Thats it anyway. sorry about the long mesg.
That was a great message and it was not long enough. It appears there are a lot of people who do not think like us which is so amazing to me. How in the world can we reach the world and our teenagers if we show them a life of poverty. We must show them that being a Christian does not mean we have to be poor and not have our needs met. Nothing could be better than having all your needs met and being able to bless others in the process, it's the abundant life God talks about! And Robel I don't know if you knew this, but Pastor Price told us in service about 3 or 4 years ago that a couple who attend the church gave him the car! They told him happy birthday, the cars paid in full, now go down and pick it out. So the haters are trying to get all over him for having a nice car and house and he got the car as a gift. So here we see again, the man is just blessed - He is a giver and when you give, it shall be given unto you. Another thing Robel, I never thought about it but I think you may be right. They probaly are jealous. If they would sit and listen to the man they would realize they can follow Christ, be free and live a blessed life too.
Here's the key ladies. This isn't a blog about theology, it's a conversation about the media, and how people of faith are perceived in the culture. Believe what you want to about whether or not Christians should be rich. Hey - I want a jet. The question here is where does it start to damage our witness to the world? When so many pastors and ministry leaders live so much better than the rest of the world - especially their supporters, no matter how "legit" WE think it might be, if it turns off the world from listening to our message, is it worth it?
Um, as far as I am concerned sir, this ignorant decision of yours to lie on Dr. Price without first hearing the whole message, has not caused and will not cause people to be turned back from Dr. Price’s ministry. All it will do is draw more people to his ministry. “What the enemy means for evil, GOD turns to our good.” (Gen. 50:20) I don’t doubt that this was a genuine mistake on your part, but I will tell you this, you were used! You were used by the enemy to try and defame Dr. Price’s name and integrity; but it didn’t work, because now you have to retract your story. So in all things GOD will get the GLORY and no demon in hell can stop it.
Another thing, even if it were true that Dr. Price had a Palace made out of 24 carat gold and diamonds, and he was sitting on 44rs, why is that any of your business? Can you deny the hard work that Dr. Price has done for the LORD? Can you deny that he has been faithful to HIM and his parishioners and has totally sold out for CHRIST? I know you can’t, because you obviously don’t know everything there is to know, you have proven that. So, if GOD chooses to bless HIS son with the whole world (which HE promised to) then that is HIS business and you don’t have a right to comment on it. Do you have any children? If you were wealthy and you had kids, wouldn’t you give them your best? Especially when they go all out for you and your vision. I believe your answer would probably be yes. Well then, do you think that you are a better father than our FATHER, who just so happens to be GOD of the entire universe and everything else and has promised to prosper us when we seek “first HIS KINGDOM and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS?” (Matt. 6:33)When you work diligently for HIM, He will bless you beyond measure. What is the media going to do when the “Wealth of the sinner that is laid up for the just,”(Prov. 13:22b) gets transferred into our hands? If little things like this sets you guys off, then you need to stock up on pens and papers in abundance because HE is really going to give you guys something to write about. You think Hollywood is exciting; the Body of CHRIST is about to make front-page news! You can’t find a better employer than GOD. You need to change your employer and come on over to the other side, because the one you work for now, just made a fool out of you! Keep your head up Dr. Price! I know the real deal. I gots, nothing but love for you my brother!
In Pursuit of HIS Kingdom,
Hysalene Hines
Who says it is, "turning the world off from listening to our message?" I read stats that say to the contrary...more of these ministries reaching people with the Gospel than ever, more healings, more churches being built worldwide, more people out of debt...the list goes on. It is like certain political parties...they see what they want to see. Since when was Jesus concerned about his "popular image?" He just preached the Gospel and reached a lost and dying world and so are these ministries...reaching the masses just like Jesus said would happen in the last days.
"Damaged witness"?! Just because of a few chronic complainers who will always be there...like Paul's thorn in the flesh. No, these ministries and churches like them, are doing a work that only you and I can dream of.
Hello Stephanie, I have been reading all of the back and forth conversation and I am glad that Mr. Price seems to have a good report about him. You see, I have been listening to the copelands since 1987. Believeing that they, and others like them, are God's men and women of God. As life has gone on, I have had many relationships where people I have trusted, I have caught in lies and deception that have resulted in my hurt, badly. Maybe I had been too quick to say they are all nothing but lying crooks, because of what life experice has dished out to me. The disapointment of someone you would fight for being nothing but a lie does something to you. I know you may know only of Mr. Price, but have you heard about what is being said about the others? Especially Mr. Hinn. How undercover cameras and reporters went in and found out what they did and how there is no documentation of any of his healings? And how Paul Crouch of TBN had a gay lover and paid much money for the guy to keep his mouth shut about the afair and even Paul's lawyers admitted that all of that bribe money was paid? What I am trying to say is this. No! I do not want to judge the man of God and be as the devil. But I also can not be an ostridge or go around as a sheep with the wool over my eyes, or a fool. Can EVERYTHING I hear and see about these preachers be lies of the media? I know you may feel it is not the christian thing to do to get on the web and investigate these claims, but if you did, either your eyes may be opened, or you may feel you are sinning in doing so. Am I a sinner to try to get to the bottom of what is realy true about the ministers I supported or am I a fool to not look into wether or not they have a good report and are truely fit for God's service? Only a cult would not allow a person to question wether or not a man is of God or of greed. And if most of them be of greed not God, then the reason it has been alowed to go on so long is because us good little christians are told "touch not God's prophet" or something like that, so then we just go along with the program! Either make a tree good and it's fruit truely good or make it rotten! Lukewarm or on fire! Truth or a lie! Leave no room for doubt. And from what I have seen, there is much room for doubt about these preachers whom I grew-up loving and respecting! It takes guts to look all of this in the eye becuase your belief system may be shaken. But as long as you go back to the bible and know that whom you serve is God and not man, it will be ok. You may veiw me as a messenger of satan sent to tempt you to doubt a man of God. Well, my questions about some ministers arose, not lately, but around the year 1999, when Benny Hinn's brother came to preach at a church I went to in Brockport, New York. He was long winded and spoke hardly any bible and when the 2hr mark was comming up, I had to go because I had to get home to take my mother to an apointment. But you see, Mr. Hinn's brother was acting like a mafia thug! He got real mad everytime anyone even tried to get up to go to the bathroom and he was makeing the congregation feel like we were being "held hostage" and condemned by God if we dare stand-up. I felt he was ticked because Benny sent him to this church because the pastor of it had been a friend to him from way back in the day and Hinn's brother may have been offended to have to come to this church when it was not a mega-church. I felt he was a thug and when I went to get up he looked at me as to want to rebuke me like he rebuked others before but I had the fire of God in me with a look like don't you dare try to rebuke me for keeping my word and my commitment to my mother who needs me or I will upbraid you! And he kept his mouth shut. The ones that are not real, thrive on our fear. I learned that, that day. So what do you think? Was I sent by the devil to destroy your faith, which can't be destroyed because it is in God, not a man. Or am I ok in trying to see who is realy a man of God to listen to. You decide.
Hey Dawn...sounds like you have some deep scars. A few things to note:
1) All men will fail you. Keep your eyes on Him alone. Sure there are some great preachers that have insights that can help you, teach you. But they are human.
2) Re Benny Hinn: I have a dear friend who worked for him for a decade and her job was to research healings, document with doctors before they ever used the testimony on air. In the past, this woman worked for Jerry Falwell and other ministries. She and her team had very strict rules regarding these testimonies. Many have been healed by the power of God.
Blessings to you. Mary
Hi Mary, thank you for your reply. Do you know how much I would love to believe that Mr. Hinn and the Copelands and Joyce and others where truely not greedy snake oil salesmen!!!! Do you know what that would mean to me? Right now I got money problems and some preach send me money and God will bless you, others preach that God don't operate that way and you will be punished for not just being happy that God helps you get by and you had better be THANKFULL for just that or he will get you! I want to scream I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND! Some use the word and prove prosperity preachers are wrong, others use the word and prove how they are right. Same bible, just different verses in the bible to prove their points. I guess I realy could benefit from some prayer. I don't have any friends because I droped the ones I had because they didn't care if they lived in sin and I do! I want to help myself not be like a sinner not help myself to be one so all I have left is my mother who is sometimes litterally half nuts with hate for me (she is not christian and resents God) and 2 dogs that are God-sends to me. I've tried to join area churches some time back, and boy did I find out how the majority say you are devil possessed if you believe speaking in tongues is of God. But all I want to know is.......If they are not all just greedy and you truely do know of actual doctor proven testimonies, how could they say what they said on the video at www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_miracles.html? Also put Bonnie Parker and Copeland in a search engine. That's another story that makes me grieve. And also about copelands former employees testimonies and how he backed-out of a business deal and left his partners millions in debt. I never had family and I so looked up to these "men and women of God" for years! I guess after hearing things I did, I feel....well, fill in the blank. Then throw in starting to listen to Alex Jones that I came across while looking for preaching programs and boy that realy leaves you wondering is there anyone you can trust! Boy, now I can see why crazy people go around wearing tin foil hats! Chuckles! At least I can laugh! Yes, our redemption drawns near, but we can not, not take notice of the things that are seeming to be comming down the pike and not try to stand up against evil; and if the things Alex Jones talks about are true.....well.....us christians who just say as long as we are in the word everything will be ok......I don't know about that aditude! I guess I just don't know who's got the answers now-a-days. Yes the word has the answers, but each camp interpretes it in their own ways! Now that is the point I scream! There is nothing wrong with trying to lift up my ears and my eyes and try to see just what the TRUTH IS. The WORD is truth, but then there will always be someone come up along side you and say, are you sure you are reading the right translation!!!!
www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_miracles.html
Now I think I got it right. If not, just type benny hinn the fifth estate into a search engine. click on what comes up and then click on entire documentary and watch it.
How can I not wonder? I do still believe GOD heals though.
Dawn, you are great example of why those one TV preaching the Gospel should be held to a higher standard -- and how it effects those without Christ when they fail.
As I said in the earlier post, these folks are all human, they will all fail you to one degree or another. That does not mean God does not use them; or God is not in them. It simply means they are human.
Don't look to them as your example. Find a local church, read the Word for yourself and pray. I know it sounds too easy--but it's the only way.
I feel like someone has been praying for me. Thank you Mary and who ever else may have also. I have a better perspective of things. I guess I could not get past my mind and the questions of how, why, howcome, ect.. I am going to stand on my bible, the new king james version and those who say that translation is not the right one--- they can go splash themselves with cold water. God sees my heart and that I am trying to follow mine, which I do believe He is in. And even if some of the preachers I have loved and trusted where never true, or where and fell---so what! They had READ FROM the bible out loud, and that WORD is what blessed me. I will honor them for THAT and thank them for that, and not speak evil of them even if the whole time they where out to decive by any chance. They still spoke out God's word and I will cling to what I feel the HOLY SPIRIT tells me it ment. Now you babtists who think that because I did not get born with a male apendige, I don't have what it takes to be able to listen to the Holy Spirit and be able to understand what the word of God is saying to me. You can go take a cold shower too. I understand a male leadership role, but I do not believe that means that God did not create me with out a brain he has confidence I can use, and a spirit that is indwelt by His, man or no man in my life to cover me! Yes, I do value a man. But I am not useless and a nothing just because God hasn't blessed me with a quality one yet, Mr. Babtist. I have learned to thank these preachers for what was GOOD and honor them for that, and forgive them for what was bad and just have the courage to say....I beg to differ with you about that, and, just because I do beg to differ about what you said or how you conducted yourself does not mean I am going to hell. When I miss it, God will deal with me, just like I believe it will be God who is going to deal with you Mr. Preacher Man. And I will leave it at that. I guess I just have had to work out my own salvation so to speak in dealing with all of the gossip and investigations, and sometimes down right ugliness that has arisen from all this that has been going on lately; whether it is a result of God doing some holy housecleaning in the church, or the devil's attacks on those who preach. I leave it to God. But what of all the people who get their faith shaken from all they are hearing and reading. Well, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. Work it out! Turn inward, and find the Holy Spirit, go to the word and pray. We will be ok.
He who earnestly seeks good finds favor, But trouble will come to him who seeks evil. Spend the rest of your life seeking God and what is good and make your environment (your home or personal space) a haven for the Lord to be real to you on a daily basis so that it can affect your life as well as others around you. Do not let the failed decisions of Men/Women of God cloud your reality of Jesus Christ. It is what makes our life with God so much more better than any other religion or lifestyle in the world - we have personal (one to one) access to the Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ!!! Man is not your god and make sure it stays that way.
Very good way to look at things! I will remember your words Breaklight, and the words of Mary too.
Phil, you say, "When is enough, enough" is a legitimate question, but I'm not so sure. Paul stated that he was glad that the Gospel was preached no matter what the preachers' motives might be, including monetary gain. I am also not so thrilled about your idea of transparency. As a practicing lawyer, I am well acquainted with the fact that transparency usually goes hand-in-hand with regulation. If a minister is misusing funds that I have given for the proclamation of the Gospel, that is between that minister and the Lord. And, of course, if I believe that the minister will misuse funds, then I can give my money to someone else.
Not so sure I agree with that one Peter. Yes, I'm happy the gospel is being preached, but it's also being bungled and compromised - especially when it comes to the world's perception of this stuff. And keep in mind, we've discovered from various "failures" in the past with prominent TV evangelists that it hurts everyone. Perhaps even more important, if these ministries aren't more transparent, that's EXACTLY what will invite more regulation. Don't get me wrong - I work for major ministries for a living, and most I know have great integrity and honesty. I'm not trying to criticize, but I'm trying to get their attention and let them know the world is looking. And if we don't keep our house clean, the government will step in and do it for us...
Besides - you talk about giving your money to someone else if they misuse the funds, (good idea) but how would you ever know unless they were either more transparent, or outsiders were reporting what they're doing?
Phil, while I personally believe that there have been excesses and poor theology (some extreme), I don't see any scriptural precedent for your argument for spiritual truant officers. Again, I don't see you getting around Paul's statement that he was glad that the gospel was preached despite the motivations of the preacher (even if those included money). Maybe I'm a little more educated than some; if I got some holy water in the mail, I certainly wouldn't be cutting a check.
I totally understand your concerns, and I'm not advocating "theology cops." That's why I do this blog - to start a conversation about who's doing it well, and who's making us all look like idiots... :-) If we can call each other to a higher standard - particularly as we use the media, it will have enormous impact in the culture. I don't have all the answers, but someone out there might, and in a media-driven culture, we need to understand the power of the public's perception, and how much that impacts our witness.
But if a minister, over the public airwaves that we all own, is misusing funds that people have given for the proclamation of the Gospel, that is not just between that minister and the Lord. We the people own the airwaves so therefore should not the minister be accountable to all of us?
So, does this mean you're putting the jet on hold??
I agree with you Phil that ministers should try to be examples. Al Gore has also been called out recently for preaching (conservation) while setting an opposing bad example (a polluting lifestyle with his own jet too). However, I have a problem with John Stossel's tabloid reporting. He glazes over this issue all too quickly and has very limited sources. I have two main issues to his "surface" reporting. First, though it looks like ministers are badly spending ministry funds I know for a fact that many of these ministers (not all) gain their successful incomes from others sources: their best selling books, business ventures (that should be nobody's business), tapes, CDs, and DVDs of their own messages. They can choose to pour their wealth back into their minstries or some other charity (and many do) but that is their choice. Second, though you (and I) have chosen to avoid the expense of a personal jet other ministries should have the right to choose otherwise. Kenneth Copeland, who was criticized on the report, is a pilot. On his way back from meetings overseas he flies through Hawaii - instead of, as reported, flying out of his way with the ministry jet. So if he chooses to extent a layover for a few days of R&R I don't see the sin in that. Come on - any of you that had a layover in Hawaii would probably do the same. So I agree minsters should be examples but some reporters can easily twist things or look for something where there is nothing. None of us would like someone looking at and reporting our spending habits and accusing us of misappropriated funds without documentation. Maybe we should also request receipts of how these reporters spend their money and time.
I don't mind any leader being "blessed", but there is a point where huge mansions for just a few people is too much. Or several luxury cars that cost more than a typical donor's house. Also, who needs a car for everyday of the week or every whim?
There is a point where you need to be accountable not only to God, but your peers and ultimately your "support". There is always a level that is too much and how that appears to the rest of us, jealous or not.
What degree of "blessing" do we all think we have arrived at or earned? How does that look?
Random thoughts...
Hey, if Phil gets a jet, I WANT ONE TOO!
On a serious note, this is a tough one and not one I think we are called to fix.
I too see the wisdom of flying top ministers in private jets. But when a ministry leader is flying in a private jet and stringing out vendors 120+ saying they don't have the money to pay the bills, that is a problem.
Jesus was our example on how we should live right? Last time I checked he didn't bother with amassing wealth. He had what he needed to be able to do what he needed to do for ministry. I'm pretty sure he wasn't all about his new Gucci toga. I think many of these evangelists are going to get to the end of their lives and realize what a waste it all was. Look at the scene near the end of Schindler's List, Schindler had done amazing things to save as many Jews as he could during the war and as they were putting him in his car to help him get away he collapses realizing that the gold ring on his finger and his car could have been sold and he could have saved a few more. How much more regret are these men and women going to experience.
If you need a jet because you have so many places to be that commercial flying isn't conducive to your ability to facilitate that schedule then you should probably have a conversation with God to make sure that he wants you to be doing all the things on your schedule and if so then get the jet. But having a jet so you can get to Fiji whenever you want to and a house with 20 more rooms than you could ever use and a closet full of expensive clothes you only wear once, then you are probably going to be sobbing beside your car one day realizing how many more people you could have saved.
Something tells me God would rather you buy a $3000 well in Rwanda than a $3000 suit to wear on TV.
It's a good point, but problematic. In this type of thinking, where do you draw the line? Should I not buy that $18 shirt and instead get a $7 shirt and put the rest into missions? No more lattes - black coffee only. But wait, for that $1.00 black coffee, I could use that money to reach the lost. See the point? Your intentions are right, but simply taking the cheaper route isn't always the best way. Thank God the Pope didn't take the cheap way out and paint the Sistine Chapel blue. Instead he spent some serious $$ and had Michaelangelo create a masterpiece.
My suggestion to you is to pass go and go straight to hell, because your feelings will definitely be hurt in heaven, once you see the wealth that is there. (Not that I am telling you to go to hell). Does anyone here read their bibles or do you just look at things through your limited minds and try and figure GOD out on your own? Read about Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, David, Solomon. These guys will make all you poverty lovers want to scream foul play, with the wealth that GOD blessed them with. Listen, the reason why the people in the church are poor, is because they don't read their bibles and follow the simple principles that GOD laid out in there. Don't blame the men and women of GOD who do seek after the face and heart of GOD. It isn't their fault that you can't outgive GOD. (2 Cor.9) Instead of people getting off of their spiritual behinds and finding truth themselves, they try to live off of the faith of the Pastors, and then get mad when things don't work for them in their lives. Read your own bible! Shut your mouths, study to show yourselves approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15) You might learn something and get blessed in the process.
In Pursuit of HIS KINGDOM,
Hysalene Hines
Paul was not only an apostle, he was a businessman who was able to say that he never begged anyone for money. He says in one of the letters that he made tents to support his work and only asked people to give to his ministry so it could be credited to them by God. This is why I am all for ministry leaders also being successful businessmen. It kinds of cuts the "living off ministry funds" criticism to the ground. I know that there are many who do own companies that support their ministries, though I'm not sure about Fred Price.
I also know of a minister who always drives a new Mercedes Benz and gets a lot of criticism for it. But what people don't know is that once a year he also gives away a brand new Benz to a missionary or inner city pastor. I don't see a problem with a few luxury cars, but really, Mr. Price, ten are just impractical. You can only drive one at a time, right?
When it comes down to it, "all things are lawful but not all things are expedient." Some things just aren't a great representation of God's heart. I never want to judge someone's harvest if I don't know what kind of seeds they have planted, but as God's ambassadors we need to be conscious of our example to the world. Really, it is a matter of the heart. God is never limited in any way, as he owns "the cattle on a thousand hills." If someone wants to give a minister a Jet, or if that minister is wise with their money and saves for that Jet, then praise God. But I think the line is crossed when that minister is MORE concerned about their personal luxury than God's kingdom building. How's that for a diplomatic answer? :-)
I was a member of Fred Prices church for 18 years until recently. The entire time that I was there, he owned one car (a Rolls Royce that was given to him). His wife had one car. He gave the first car to his daughter years later when someone gave him another Rolls Royce. He did not buy either car. He never owned a yacht. He owned one home, that he sold to his daughter and then pruchased another home that was no where near 5 million dollars when he purchased it. Probably not even a 1/5 of 5 million. The value of his home has escalated significantly as with all California real estate. Therefore it is probably worth 5 million.
Everyone has a salary and should not receive criticism for what they do with there personal earnings. However, they will always receive criticism because people will always say that they are using church funds for their lifestyle, when in reality, they are simply living on their salary. These are smart anointed men and women. They did not get to the place where they are being dumb. Don't you think someone smart enough to hear from God and pastor such successful congregations, cannot additionally hear from God and invest, and prosper even aside form their church salaries?
Many pastors have poured into the lives of thousands of people whose lives have changed drastically as a result of their ministries. In return (without request from the pastor) the people want to bless them and many of them do. Sometimes, as in the case, of Fred Price and others, people have purchased cars for them. This is not an example of stealing from the church.
I was in the service when Dr. Price taught the lesson on 'the Purpose of Prosperity" and he was simply giving a pretend situation saying, lets say I have a mansion, yacht, etc, etc. He was not referencing himself. This was amalicious attempt by 20/20. They had the tape and they chose to air only the portions that would incite the most "Drama".
They owe Dr. Price a publicly televised apology!
"Just try getting Billy Graham, Joyce Meyer, or Joel Osteen through a busy airport without getting mobbed by well-wishers and admirers. Plus, one estimate reported that when a high level business leader switches to private air travel, it reduces stress, and adds as much as 7 years to their life span, and increases their efficiency and productivity significantly." Concerning your concern for religious leaders, please read the Word and see what the apostles went through, and it wasn't from crowds of well-wishers. Private jets can be leased. Most of these people have celebrity status because they have removed the offense of the cross. "In fact everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse deceiving and being deceived." People like what they are selling, because they can keep what they have, and still feel good about themselves in a lost and dying world. Paul talked about them in 1 Timothy 6:3-5, "If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain." Its not about the cross. It's about the money!!!!
My greatest concern is that while we read and reply to one another's blogs (opinions), souls are marching into hell without a clue that the Savior of the world has paid the price for their redemption from sin, sickness, lack and death. I think we should boycott television because I actually did not know Fred was targeted until his ministry notified me and only heard about the TBN portion of the program from a seeker. I wonder who God will hold accountable for the souls deterred by the report, not the jets, mansions, etc.. What about the two commands that Jesus asked us to obey? Those two would resolve all the issues. Love God, love others...
March 11, 2007 proved that the truth always comes out. ABC had to do a retraction on the statment about Fred Price. I truly believe according to the scriptures that it is God's will for his body of people to prosper. Who cares if he did have those things. If he earned them honestly, they belong to him. He does more than preach from the pulpit. He is also a traveling Minister, and he does wright books.
Thank you for stopping the madness Carl.
The reactions of the flock of Fred Price, to me, is a very clear demonstration of bad fruit.
The worldly conclusions and reactions, versus the characteristics of a true christian, are GLARING, to anyone who knows the Bible.
As previously stated, as a christian you should EXPECT to be persecuted, so why there is so much shock and outrage, and why there is so much concern for what the world thinks, is a clear sign of the false witness of the flock of Price.
I've heard Price on many occasion, speak on material wealth that he has.... THAT IS WHAT HE PREACHES!!!!
So why is everyone so outraged?
Does the truth hurt?
I'll bet it does... as it is written - those who do evil hate the light, because their evil deeds are exposed.
Yes the TECHNICAL aspect of the 20/20 report was wrong, but the prosperity teaching reported on was not, and that is really the point.
You people who worship Fred Price, need to start worshipping the Lord. Jeremiah 17:5
Wow Mike you're kind of scary. Most people are here posting about Dr. Price being LIED on but obviously you have an issue with the prosperity message. Nobody is worshipping Dr. Price. We are glad to have some kind of vindication from the lies ABC tried to hold over his head. I don't care if you dislike him, hate his message of faith and believe he is a false prophet! If you are a christian you should have been outraged like the rest of us that another brother in Christ was LIED on. Regardless of what it is you don't like that he has obtained, he still doesn't have the mansion, the helicopter, the 7 cars or the personal private jet! That was all a LIE. We are dealing with the LIE, thats all. If we allow them to lie on our christian brother in Christ that means they can continue to lie because no one is challenging them. Their entire program that evening could have turned multiple amounts of prospective christians off from being saved! I would concur that is a problem. So take Fred Price and the fact that you don't like him out of the equation and you have a major network feeling free to be lousy lazy journalists. So no Mike, the truth hurts doesn't apply here, because their "so called truth" was a lie.
The point is this: All of you well meaning defender of Fred Price are so passionate but it's all for nothing. Until you can argue with that same passion for Christ instead of a preacher nobody on the outside of Christianity will ever get it. Here is a little fact for you: If you don't passionately argue for Christ instead of your pet mega ministry preacher they won't be reached. Mega ministries don't reach non-christians they reach other christians who are not pleased with their current church. Thats whay 95 percent of church growth in America today is transfer (one church to another) or biological (Christians having babies). So argue for Christ with passion to a non christian not with a fellow christian about some preacher.
As a follower of Christ who believes in a simple lifestyle, it is hard for me to comprehend the lifestyles of these T.V. evangelists. They may be getting the money from their books but when they live like the CEO of a corporation, at that stage, they are not any different than the worldly people.
While I was on a missionary trip in a third world country, I had to sleep and eat in the
host Pastor's humble surroundings which I have suffered with joy because I was there to serve the Lord Jesus. But one internationally known T.V. evangelists and his
entourage spent more than $ 1000.00/night to stay in a posh hotel but in the same
city, millions of people were making less than $ 1.00/day. This kind of lifestyle
in a third world country while on a crusade trip will bring negative response from the
people. I don't have any right to question these preachers, but it seems like their
message is to teach people, how to bring down heaven to earth and enjoy the fullest
in this life itself. Going to heaven or the 2nd coming of Christ etc are bygone
and trashed subject now. Indeed, we are living in the end times.
Has anyone ever thought that getting paid to "share the gospel" or "preach to word" is NOT SCRIPTURAL! The early church in the book of Acts is our example to follow. Did Paul get paid or did he work outside of his ministry so as to not burden the flock? These modern day preachers are tickling ears, motivating millions with puffed up emotional outbursts, and teaching a doctrine of new age self improvement and of lawlessness so they can rake in millions. By getting paid to do this, they are open to theological misgivings at best and outright corruption at worst so as to "get paid" by the paying customers (church-goers). They are prostituting the gospel message for profit. In the end, there will be judgement for profiting in money and riches from the gospel message, leading the flock astray and dishonoring the Creator.
It's criminal what they are doing..in the case of Fred Price and others similar