Kenneth Copeland On CBS News

Too bad, Joe. you apparently have not read the NT accurately. You know the part that talks about sowing and reaping. Why would you want to sow judgment on yourself? Or the part about even a fool is counted wise if he keeps his mouth shut. Oh, wait, that's OT. Disregard that.

The NT warns about being distracted from what we are called to do. Don't let the story of the Copeland's get you distracted. They are obviously doing something right; if they weren't, no one would care about them.

Stop attacking this man Kenneth Copeland. He is a genuine man of God. I have been partnered with his ministry since August 1998 (9 1/2 years). I am serving God whole-heartedly today because of what God had done in his ministry. I preach the along the same lines in my ministry what he preaches because he is preaching the truth of the Word of God.

Of course he fits every description of a heretic because he is one. Long before I became a "christian", I studied nearly every metaphysical sect. When I became a "Christian", I was introduced to Hagin, Kenyon and Copeland. I asked why these men were teaching what I gave up when I became a christian. For nearly 40 years now, I have written many treatises instructing believers as to exactly why what he teaches is heresy and why he fits every description not only of a heretic but a false prophet, which if you read everything the OT and the NT teach on false prophets and teachers, they all have one thing in common: The "minister" makes himself rich at the expense of the sheep all under the cover of ministry to God. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The false shepherd needs the sheep to lay down their lives (or at least their livelihood) for the shepherd. A shepherd feeds the sheep and lays down his life for the sheep. The wolf feeds on the sheep. Copeland and those like him all feed ON the sheep. They are rich by fleecing the sheep and by devouring their substance. It's THAT simple. And like Jeremiah said, "The prophets prophesy falsely (for the big bucks) and the priests bear rule over My people through their means, and my people love to have it so." And Isaiah said of "shepherds" that make merchandise of the ministry and the sheep, "Yes, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."

His creed is greed and his God is Gold, just like the false prophets of the OT who enriched themselves at the expense of the sheep and just like the rich Pharisees of the NT who did likewise under the cover of ministry as their just due as ministers. It's the same old story. When money is the message, it's the WRONG message. When that money is obtained by fleecing and devouring the substance of the sheep (read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel over and over and over until their message seeps into every cell), they are false prophets, false shepherds, or to put in other words, they are wolves. It's THAT simple. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. It's THAT simple.

Funny u should quote ""Ye shall know them by their fruits. It's THAT simple."

You obviously have no clue as to what all this ministry is involved in, like been the 1st ones to help the Katrina Hurricane victims w/o expecting to get paid by FEMA..!!

Also, the Mexicanito orphanage in Mexico, for which they provide on a continuos basis, or the 26 airplanes they have GIVEN AWAY into other ministries over the years, w/o strings attached... to name just a FEW of the good things this worthy ministry is involved in.

Yes, he preaches prosperity, but not to hoard it up, nor spend it in ur own lusts, but to be a BLESSING unto others..!!

May God forgive u, for u know not what u talk about when u acuse His servant.

Love u with the love of the Lord.

Eddie.

I am a christian and I believe in giving unto the Lord, but I also know that some ministries do things that are wrong and should be found out. My thing is How many children could be fed and given clothes, How many kids could be given an education, How many kids could be given medical care, and How mony kids could be given shelter for what it cost to build the Copeland's 18,00 sg ft house. Why the need for 4 planes,why the need for such nice things. I know many friends who have done exactly what these miniters say and have done so for years and til this dat=y are still stuggling while these miniters are living high on the hog. I do believe that if any ministry is doing wrong the Lord will expose them. Case Closed. People don't let these ministers mis lead you. I know they are just human like me and you and can get caught up with themselves. Like I said if they are doing things wrong, they should have nothing to hide. David

Hi David,

Just so you know the inside information concerning the Copeland's new home. They saved for over 30 years to build that house. Another fact is that for over 10 years they never took a salary increase but lived off of the principle of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving (which are biblical new testament scriptures) that really work. I have been blessed myself by learning these biblical principles. Many times I have believed God for things I needed and just desired and I would listen to the Lord to sow my tithes and offering exactly where he told me to and eventually I would receive my needs met too. One time someone just walked up to me that I didn't even know and gave me a diamond ring because the Lord moved in there heart to give to me. He has had me give to others along the same way and I am the one who gets most blessed when I give to bless others. My husband and I believed for several years to get our house paid off and get out of debt. Not only did we say it with our mouth, and believed it in our heart (Mark 11:23,24) but we also gave offerings believing that God was going to make the way for our prayer to be answered. After staying strong on our confession and giving as the Lord directed us to give one day an unexpected opportunity for a source of income came our way and within 1 year our house was completely paid off and we had no debt. We have been debt free for many years now. Only God can do things like that but it is based on us hearing his voice(through reading the bible, prayer and being obedient to do what God ask us to do). I have been born again since I was 7 years old and was 14 when I first heard of the Copelands. I am 49 now and can tell you that the Word works...(It is not a Copeland Bible but a Holy Spirit inspired of God bible.) It is not always on my time schedule but the word always works. For me personally, I am glad that there have been pioneers of the faith that have been willing to forge the trail for others so that I can learn by example instead of having to get all the knowledge on my own. God is no respector of persons and what he has done for others he will do for us.

I personally do not desire an 18,000 sq ft house but if the rock stars and movie stars can have them because basically people are donating to their ministries when they purchase their cd's and video's...then why can't the christians have nice things. Everyone still has freedom of choice to do what they want to with their money...to give or not to give to whomever they desire.

Blessing on you.

Sorry, second sentence should be "No representation whatsoever as to how the majority of the money donated to KCM is used." I knew there had to be a reason we could preview posts... ;)

I agree with you. Go to You Tube and watch Kenneth's reaction to the new's commentator when he asks him..."Do you and Gloria read the letters that come into your ministry?" It is priceless. ...at one point he points his finger in his face and says, "That's none of your business." The ones I truly feel sorry for are those who work in the ministry and those who sacrifice to build his (Not HIS) kingdom.

Dear mdalton,

Could you give us any more information about your family's experience with KCM? If you cannot do so here, link to me and find my email address.

Thank you, Robert

TV ministries, in my opinion, is sent to help us grow, God's Word is meant for us to know. Never, never, never, rely on a human to be God.....read His Word......and you will know that HE is God. TV was or preacher, or evanglist were never meant to replace God's Word. Read the Bible, pray, and talk with Your Father. KCM is not the only one that can do that. No Ministry, Preacher, Friend, Pastor, Teacher, should take the place the of YOU Reading God's Anointed Word....the BIBLE.. Do not be lazy. Because at one time I was. Praise be to God for His Word.......and all that sends it forth. Read Jermiah if you want to know more about God's Word......

Financial Transparency doesn't necessarily equate to publishing your detailed balance sheet and Revenue Expense Report online for the whole world to see.

In the case of KCM it doesn't equate to a terse statement on their website along with a Pie Chart that presents where their money goes as a percentage of their entire budget, for which there is no dollar amount and further no detailed explanation as to what their categories represent.

I think the solution is simple. We have an independent organization which establishes standards in this arena for Public ministries. It is called the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountibility (ECFA). It arose in large part in the wake of the PTL scandal.

I do not give to organizations that don't participate voluntarily. It's the reason I haven't contributed to Oral Roberts University, one of the schools I attended, because they didn't participate. Part of the transition taking place there now is that they are going to join and participate and so my practice in that regard will change now that there is responsible leadership in place and a commitment to higher standards.

Interestingly, Kenneth Copeland and his Son-in-Law were former Board Members of the governing body of ORU. So, they had a direct hand and direct responsibility for the known financial misreporting that took place there that resulted in an over $50 million dollar deficit that was hidden and not disclosed until after a lawsuit that was filed by 3 former employees that included allegations of financial mismanagement and inappropriate use of ministry and university funds by the Richard Roberts Family.

There's an additional lawsuit that has since been filed as well by an accountant of the organization that alleges that he was directed and coerced into misreporting and hiding things which resulted in his dismissal that is still outstanding as well.

As Phil has noted before too, 3 of the 6 ministries targetted by Senator Grassley's investigation have or had direct ties to ORU.

It's reasonable to assume for the purposes of investigation that Board Members of one organization with proven mismanagement and possible misappropriation of funds may be similarly mismanaging their own organizations. I may have misgivings and I do about the way Grassley is handling the situation and I do, but I can't deny that he has reasonable cause to do something.

The only means the Christian community has to impact maverick organizations is to not contribute to them.

The best standard I know at this time to invoke is ECFA membership. If an organization doesn't belong and adhere to the practices of that regulatory body, that's a strong clue that either they don't care or they have something to hide.

Let the donor beware.

Excellent Post.

Good post. I've never heard of the ECFA. Would've saved me a ton of headaches.

Their Website is http://www.ecfa.org/

If you look there now you'll see a lot of information related to Grassley's investigation and the Televangelist ministries under investigation by him.

The Kenneth Copeland Ministry Response to Grassley by the way was effectively, "Have the IRS Audit us."

I bet they will get what they wish for and then some.

I second the "Noah article,"...well said.

The standards of Leadership are higher.

Christ's admonition to us to Judge not, lest we be judged ourselves" is not a command to suspend discernment and cease self-regulating within the body.

I certainly agree that the ECFA or any self-regulating body is not a perfect measure or solution to every situation.

We're speaking here however of situations that have occured and have recurred since the PTL scandal which continue to give the body of Christ as a whole a black eye, to say nothing of the resources that have been wasted directly and withheld from giving by people who view this and themselves assess the entire Church by what has taken place. I still recall the impact on local church giving that resulted in the aftermath of PTL.

I'm perfectly content to allow God to be the final judge with regard to Kenneth Copeland and his teaching. We're to judge the fruits, not the tree.

I frankly have little patience with passively standing by as an individual or a church and pretending it's somehow spiritually "nice" to not state clearly when there is mismanagement, or a failure to submit to proper authority both civil and spiritual.

Well said. You make me glad I didn't post a response.

What I have stated is not to blindly just let things happen. That is not what I am even stating at all even regarding the Copelands or any current media pastor under fire right now. What I am saying is first and foremost is that we as believers need to apply the biblical standards of judging a matter in house without needing the world's media and politics to determine that for us. Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:6; 1Timothy 5:19. I can guarantee you that very few Christians actually apply the bibilical model of judging matters in house before the world hears one word. Why because we don't even live by the Bible to authenticate & validate it's truths in our own personal lives let alone somebody else's life. That is why so many problems in the Church are taken out of context because very few people are mature enough to do it the way structured in the bible. Too many Christians get so caught up in the offense and wounds that they cannot hear or see good counsel in order to deal with the problem. There are several New Testament guidelines to dealing with offenses/hurts/emotional wounds in the Church and in even in the world that if we applied them we would be surprised how quickly the Lord would vindicate us.

That sounds nice.

What would something like that look like in the instance of the Copelands?

How do you not incorporate media and public perceptions and coverage in addressing a ministry that primarily exists and ministers in that environment?

How have the ministries in question placed themselves in a position that allows for what you suggest isn't taking place here?

Does taking a low key approach of this nature in fact further empower and enable such a ministry to continue its actions, and if so, is there a measure of responsibility for those who do so?

Ok I have not commented on this before because of the hurt it brings up in my own life,but after watching and reading more on the website I am going to vent a little. Now I know that my father "and I mean my earthly father" would probably not approve of what I am about to write but I will answer to him.

For me to start I will give you some history I was seven years old and lived out side of waco TX. my dad was a police officer in waco for about 13 years before one day he came home and told the family that he had accepted the position as head of security for KCM. the ministry sent down a huge semi to pack us up and move us to fort worth Tx. At that time KCM was just in a office building off of North Beach Street. Not long after we were there they started work on the multi million dollar ministry building out at eagle mountain lake. For me it was a dream come true my dad was head of security for what in my eyes was a ministry that was second to none. I remember spending countless weekends on the ministry property, fishing the stock ponds and watching the military helicopters take off from across the street, I even remember the time the National Guard did drills on KCM property I got to go up in huge helicopter one of the coolest things ever. But as I grew older I understood that ministry isn’t all ways nice and people that you think are close to God aren’t all ways that close… I guess I was about 14 at the time when my parents sat me and my sisters down and told me that Dad was resigning from KCM they even threw him a huge going away party. I thought for so long that my dad was ready to get back into law enforcement, but I soon realized that there was some other reason my father quit working for KCM not until a few years back I asked my mom what really happened. And that is when the truth of what happen to my dad so many years ago became real to me.

Because this is Phil’s Blog and I feel like I am working on a book I am going to make this next part very short. No matter what you have ever thought about the ministry of KCM both bad and good I know first hand that just over 13 years ago they offered my dad six figures to keep his mouth shut about what he had found out about “the Copland family” and not just the miss use of funds but the blatant disregard of hard evidence of the family stealing from the ministry, and I am not talking gas money. I am proud to say that he didn’t take a dime and though my Dad had a masters degree in criminology he took odd jobs like working security at wal-mart just to keep his family fed. I could tell story after story but for now I will let God sort it all out in the end…I know that I would not want to be Kenneth, Gloria, or John when it comes to answering to God on how they handled the money or the ministry.

So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Mercy is not the basis upon which leadership is established in Scripture.

Mercy can and should be extended to people who require it, (which is all of us.)

Leadership within the Church and Christian organizations has a higher standard.

The problem with your comment is in use of the term "...for gross self-enrichment..." Areyou now, or can you ever really be, sure, absolutely positive, that the 'gross self-enrichment' of which you accuse others, is actually true?

Please don't tellme you believe everything the media tells you?! Surely your elevator goes higher than that?!

Good grief.

"Leader" is not an exclusively Christian word. Leadership is a role, not a word of spiritual assessment.

I've been very careful of the language I've used and prefaced that which is not known with the word alleged.

What I know for certain is this:

1. Kenneth Copeland was on the Board at ORU. His Son-in-law was the Chairman of the Board of Regents there.

2. As such he was in a position of power and responsibility when the allegations, which are unproved in a public forum, with regard to Richard Roberts were brought forth.

3. It is established as fact that ORU misreported and misrepresented its financial position for years hiding the fact that they were $50 million dollars in debt. Kenneth Copeland, as a board member, shares responsibility for that situation.

4. I don't need to recount the events further which are easily seen by any who wish to on this board and in the Tulsa World for any who wish to look.

5. John Wesley being labelled as a heretic and Kenneth Copeland being labelled as a heretic doesn't make Kenneth Copeland on par with John Wesley.

6. Your personal benefit from Kenneth Copelands ministry is wonderful, but it is not a measure of truth and it is completely unrelated as to whether he manages his organization's finances in a manner consistent with the law, ethical responsibility and the laws of the land.

I was careful to note from the beginning that I did not go to CBS to get this story. I went straight to Kenneth Copeland Ministries and what I observed there was:

1. A terse statement giving minimal information denying the allegations.

2. A "Financial Report" which was only a pie chart with no numbers and no definitions as to what comprised their categories which in practical effect is meaningless.

I'm glad Kenneth Copeland Ministries has been of benefit to you and that you support him. I cannot because I do have issues with some of his theology but more than that, his organization doesn't belong to the ECFA and it has not independently taken reasonable measures to show that it manages the ministry money it receives.

Apart from the unproven allegations some of which will likely prove to be false, there's enough proven and enough evident in terms of his lifestyle and lack of accountibillity to justify further investigation and for Christians to consider their stewardship role in not contributing to his ministry until those issues are resolved.

When Kenneth Copeland gives up his jets to ride the circuit on a horse depending upon the kindness of his congregations for a place to sleep at night, I'll be willing to consider the analogy that Kenneth Copeland is a major reformer in Christian History.

Bart

AmeriKan - I'm sure you didn't mean that "theological issues with the Copelands are immaterial." It was "theological issues" that sparked the Reformation. I think that's probably the biggest argument I have with the "prosperity gospel" - their cavalier attitude toward theology. Indeed - what we believe about God matters. At least the Apostle Paul thought so. Theological difference isn't about mere "opinion," it's about a correct doctrinal understanding of scripture - and I'm not sure what could be more important than a right understanding of the Bible.

Thankyou, Sam. I will clarify.

The theologcial issue has been long standing, since the WOF Movement was "founded"/started...that discussion has not changed and never will, just as I explained in the case of John Wesley...the Methodists and Episcopalians still have their differences. But it is no cause for a government investigation and never will.

The issue at hand with certain WOF preachers is the "need for government intervention" because of the allegations of the "misuse of donor funds" and "consequential lifestyle." Doctrine, theology and fundamental beliefs is truely what the "separation of church and state is all about." If the government becomes involved to that degree, then we are all in trouble...resulting in a church state government or no church at all.

On another lesser note, the"cavalier attitude towards theology" could not be further from the truth. In the case of the WOF, they now have their own Bible colleges, just as many of our early Pentecostal denominations (A/G, COG, UPC) now have their own four year universities and seminaries. Should the Lord tarry, you will see the same succession in the WOF, as well. Since my background is Methodist, I will say the early Methodists of John Wesley's day were Biblically and theologically sound but the Methodist universities and seminaries of today have digressed considerably from the founding fathers and no longer have a "correct doctrinal understanding of scripture." These are just some of the problems that arise over time, as man interjects his own will and interpretation of what the scripture means to each. In the final scheme of things, we will all sit back and God will have his say as to what He ultimately meant when He spoke the His Word.

1. Theological issues are extremely important and material.

2. One can question the financial management of an organization without passing judgement on it theologically.

3. Loyalty to a person or organization is only a valuable quality to the extent that the person or organization is worthy of that loyalty, has earned it in the past and continues to maintain those qualities.

I'm satisfied that the issue is being pursued and that many of these issues will be resolved. I think it is sad that the Copeland Ministry has not made themselves accountable within the Christian Community at large and now it is the Government that will be doing the work.

I'm fully willing to revisit this thread in the future and apologize for any mis-statements of fact or unkindness on my part when the truth is known.

It will be interesting to see if those defending will do so should the resolution demonstrate that they have been defending sin in the camp.

I tend to agree with Bart in his discussion with "AmeriKan". Your comparisons of the WOF movement with other major denominations might be a little weak. As someone with a Ph.D. in Theology who is also Pentecostal, I would say that WOF ideas don't really constitute a "theology" but more of a offshoot of Pentecostal theology, and one which most Pentecostal scholars would consider somewhat suspect. In addition, because it "worked for you" doesn't qualify it for sound doctrine. Many Scientologists would say that works for them, but that doesn't make Scientology legitimate. Bart is correct on another issue - that a discussion of financial responsibilities can be done and should be done without regard to doctrine. Finally - "doctrine, theology, and fundamental beliefs" is NOT what the separation of church and state is about. That's a political issue entirely. Christianity has grown under both types of governments, so I would be more careful to define your terms, and not take this so personally.

What is to "take personally?" Honest debate should be welcomed. We that we, all, be after, "the truth." I have been in the church my entire life of 59 years. There is not much I have not seen and/or been intimidated by.

On the issue of "separation of church and state," perhaps one should check history. It was the nature of early America's freedoms, in particular the idea of separation of church and state that attracted our early settlers/immigrants to come to America, whether Pilgrims, Moravians, Unitarians, Universalists, etc. Here they could enjoy the freedom to practice their own, "doctrine, theology and fundamental beliefs," without fear of reprisal from the government. Because of political manipulation, primarily from the political left, the understanding of "separation of church and state" has been distorted.

Sam, you prove my point. In that WOF is an "offshoot" of Pentecostal theology, so was Methodism/Methodist an offshoot of the Anglican Church. History well documents this fact. With the progression of the WOF, time will only tell if such becomes a reality. They are fast on their way...though as in Wesley's day, certain factions are "desperate" to stop or silence the WOF movement. Thirty-five years and growing is an impressive starting track record. I cannot deny the WOF the right to preach and teach, anymore than I can deny the Methodists their right to preach and teach, though, today, many of the ME deny the virgin birth and the literal interpretation of scripture.

"Both types of governments"...Christianity may have "grown" but not prospered. Look what transpired with the church in Russia because of oppression...communism escalated. More recently, we can look to what was Christian Lebanon and the disastrous results because of state control and oppression by Islam.

A part God told us to do is to watch out for false prophets. One of the characteristics of a false prophet is love of money and greed. That's one reason why God made the qualification of an elder, to be one not given to greed.

God told us to shun those false prophets for the wolves they are seeking to devour the sheep.

Advocating a sit back and see attitude while repeating platitudes is not a solution when it applies to leaders. Leaders have a higher calling and require higher qualifications. Showing someone mercy as a church member and assisting in their healing is certainly called for. Maintaining them in leadership, often isn't. They are two separate issues and it does a disservice to the body and the Scriptures, in my opinion, to try and confuse those two elements.

I asked you ealier what you would recommend specifically in the case of Kenneth Copeland Ministries. What would what you are advocating here look like? Please be specific. I think that would be much more helpful than seeking to make those who have been victimized or who are standing with those so victimized and demanding accountibility feel guilty for taking a stand. I'm sure that is not your intent. I do see it as a natural outcome of the type of rationale I see you putting forth though.

Look Bart I'm not in a match with you and honestly you may need to read what I said very carefully. I have never said do nothing about it or else I would not advocate dealing with it inhouse first. Please look at the word first. It is in terms of action but in the light of how Scriptures dicate we do it. Until Scriptures have been applied effectively we are just wasting our time. If someone can say that they applied the Scriptures in regards to offense and reconcialiation, judging leaders within the Church or involved another Church in the process and it didn't work fine but so far no one has said they have. I think that 90% of offended believers do not actually let the people who offended them know that they have been offended in the first place but rather keep it to themselves until it festers and almost kills them becoming a root of bitterness that spreads and defiles many. The bible is written for man. Human beings are in leadership and whether or not you want to believe it they are human beings - fallen man and God does apply a higher standard but mercy is still to be appropriated with judgment. Besides we can't be judge, jury and executioner all at the same time - where is the place for God? I am not sure if I can answer your questions truthfully speaking but tearing down Christian leaders or any leader and getting justice (just us)in our own way does not produce progress, restoration or even healing for both parties and it has not worked. Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter. Give place to the Holy Spirit help.

Fair enough.

I'm not trying to be in a match either and perhaps I'm pushing things too hard.

Whenever I hear spiritual sounding language in the midst of a leadership crisis that appears to be advocating doing nothing and waiting on God, when action is clearly needed, I react. As I may have mentioned, I've helped administer things in a denominational setting where I was part of the team that had to go into Churches to deal with situations such as a pastor's affair, instances of child abuse, embezzlement by Church Treasurers or other leadership etc.

I've met these type of responses in those situations as well.

I'm not opposed to taking time out to pray. Many times, though, I've seen spiritual appeals of this nature used to deflect criticism and buy time. Very often at the expense of things that the Scriptures already clearly lay out as needing to be addressed.

When there is a structure in place that violates spiritual and scriptural standards of accountibility, there's no need to pray to ask God what to do. He's already provided guidance for discipline, restoration and accountibility. Prayer in that instance doesn't need to be whether to act or not act. Prayer in that situation should be for strength and wisdom on how to follow through with what is already spelled out.

"so far no one has said they have"

Sigh...

I have. It was rough. Very, very rough.

I speak from experience. There is at least on "leader" in the Christian community who will do whatever it takes to continue exploiting and abusing fellow Christians while simultaneously enjoying a good reputation and prominent position.

After attempting to talk with him about the abuse issues on several occasions and bringing other Christians into the discussions, I noticed the behavior continued in a cyclic pattern. He didn't like getting caught, and he didn't enjoy being confronted, but he'd go back to the same behaviors after a few weeks. He also slandered people outrageously, although usually in the guise of complaining that various people had abused him. Eventually evidence of financial malfeasance emerged. He erupted in fury when he realized I'd accidentally stumbled on the information, but offered no explanation. There was at least one other incident when money disappeared. I was offered an opportunity to join an affiliated ministry that was much more challenging, and I leaped at the chance. By then I had exhausted every Biblical option and was desperate for relief. There was simply no reasoning with him or his enablers.

He still enjoys a remarkable following, because he is an exceedingly charming person. Further, his hard luck stories about how people continually "betray" him tend to fall on sympathetic ears. He spews a steady stream of slander, all cleverly disguised as helpful advise and cautionary tales of his own "hard luck" experiences. I blame no one who is fooled, because once I was suckered in too.

I am grateful for the experience. If I hadn't met a Christian Leader who was so depraved, I wouldn't have believed it possible. I had to see for myself. Besides, because of him I joined a ministry that is far more rewarding, and ten times as challenging. I wouldn't have been brave enough for that if he and his cronies hadn't been so nasty. Yes, it was better in to have tried to deal with him in a biblical manner, but not because resolution occurred.

Because I stood up to him, I'm happier, healthier and more productive. I am also a lot less naive.

Make no mistake about it, many people managed to get away from him without actually confronting him. I wish I was one of them. He's prominant, and every once in a while someone from our organization must deal with him. I regret that I cannot be that person. He has chosen his congregation well. They will never admit they've promoted a monster to a leadership position. He's here to stay, and it's a shame I wasn't smart enough to see that from the beginning.

In the 40+ years I've lived and worked with a lot of so called "difficult people". Ironically, many people think my current boss is more than a little rough around the edges. He has to be. Given our ministry, I've had to toughen up too. Still, I'd gratefully walk across hot coals to avoid pretending all is well in a ministry where nothing is good. That's what abusive, exploitive leaders do. Slowly but surely, nothing is good, and everyone pretends all is well. It's sickening.

Annie Mouse...I regret you had to suffer and grow as you did. We have all been there and if one has not encountered such, live longer and you will. Thank God it is not the rule because there are Christians leaders out there who are men and women of integrity and who lead accordingly. I well remember being an elder in a medium to large church where the pastor only wanted a rubber stamp eldership. I won't go into the detail you did but it was a situation where had I not been where I was in my Christian growth, I don't think we (my wife and I) would have survived. Litigation was involved (not myself but one of the associates) and the national "powers that be" were called in. My only regret was not stepping down and leaving sooner. I stayed to be an advocate for the congregation and the associates who were being bullied and controlled by their boss (the senior pastor). But, Annie Mouse, this is life and in your own family, everything does not always go the way it is supposed to. You do what you can through advice, prayer and oftentimes, much forgiveness, otherwise you will be swallowed up in the middle of it and retreat in bitterness, sometimes being the ultimate loser. The best we can do is learn from our mistakes, rise to the occasion and move on. God has something better.

"The best we can do is learn from our mistakes, rise to the occasion and move on. God has something better. "

I couldn't agree more. It was extremely educational to be on "ground zero" of a Christian leadership failure. The lessons learned will never be forgotten. I got an up close, personal view of the dynamics that keep an abusive leader's position secure. It was not pleasant! That being said, no hard feelings! The education was invaluable.

My posts on this topic are anonymous and as nonspecific to the case as possible. I am prayerfully hopeful the ministry led by this man will succeed in spite of him. So much is riding on its success. It would be wonderful if the leadership team found ways to compensate for the problems and make the best of their leader's strengths. That, or if they could make a smooth, peaceful transition to new leadership. That would be far better than a public debacle.

Many Christian women tend toward nurturing attitudes. This makes us a natural codependent for an exploitive person. We naturally give; they naturally take. When my family and friends saw me caught in this dynamic, they read me the riot act! Their strength and wisdom helped me break free without regret. The abusive leader's cronies showered me with all sorts of dogmatic drivel intended to make me feel ashamed for escaping. Thank God for all the people who love me. Out of love, they firmly chewed me out each time I wavered! There are people who can thrive in the same environment with an exploitive, abusive person, but not many. It is more than "OK" to move on.

On a final note regarding this issue (I retire from this particular post), I believe that you have very good leadership qualities in the making but you need to be very careful how you judge this matter with regards to any ministry leader now or leaders you work with. If there is a problem let them know, don't assume their position. In years to come you will be tested in areas peculiar to you that none of us know right now, but you, the Lord and the devil know. I would use this as an opportunity to prepare for that time unless you do not think you will lead any organisation - and that will be very hard for your kind of person. I hope your own words will not come back to haunt you. But there is grace and mercy.

"my kind of person" ....... nice.

So,

How does it feel to be nailed in the chops with a set of brass knuckles in a velvet glove? When sweet little church ladies turn that on each other we call it "nasty nice". I've never seen a man do that to another man. I guess that was a "Christian Nice Guy" in action.

Hats off to Paul Caughlin. He has a point. Nice is not the same as good.

You're very composed. I wouldn't take that remark about your leadership potential to heart. The last time I checked "Standing for nothing and falling for anything" were not leadership traits.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I've been in many different leadership roles over the past 20 years and I'm working now for a season to complete a Masters Degree in Organizational Leadership so I guess I have some passion on the subject. Combine that with having been close to many situations where religious power has been utilized in a toxic manner within the Church and perhaps I'm more blunt than what makes some comfortable.

I try to address the issues however and not the person.

I probably post here more than I should too and so I'll try to cut back and be considerate of Phil and others here.

~Agree on all points~

I'm pretty hard over on this issue too. Like you, I've got my reasons.

Breaklight....I like your summation and heart attitude of reconciliation. As was Jesus' example, reconciliation trumps all other judements. Thus, the three Gospel instructions of, "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I can't really go into a lot of details right now as this blog is not the forum. I agree with what you are saying in some cases. It would be good if we could meet up and discuss properly and then come to a better understanding. If you knew me you may be surprised to what really went on and is going on. I have given very summarised points and even in this blog they look long. But anyway you are across the 'pond' so I'm very limited in my communication with you at the moment unless of course we exchange contact details. Do remember that it is not the first time God will use outsiders to discipline His children when they refuse to listen to Him esepcially when He has been repeatedly speaking to them to change for a long time and they refuse to listen and open themselves to a higher standard of judgment and correction.

Mel,

from reading your post is it obvious, really clear, to me that you are not acquainted with the actuall teaching or preaching of either Kenneth or Gloria COpeland, but rather are well-versed in what others and the news media have reported about the Copelands teaching/preaching. They do not advocate going into debt. They do say you can use a credit card to put a contribution on, and use it like you would use a check. For goodness sake, Mel, if you are going to criticize someone, (and apparently you arte) at least have the good character to listen to their own words.... Hint: The uncut undoctored versions are most accurate..:)