Senator Grassley's Debacle
A number of people have been asking me for my personal take on Senator Charles Grassley's "investigation" into the finances of six major Christian ministry organizations. The ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee says donors deserve to have their "money spent as intended and in adherence with the tax code." Certainly, as an American consumer and donor myself, I want more and more transparency among all non-profits and religious organizations. It's not just a matter of IRS regulations, it's also a matter of ethics and common sense. If you want trust among your supporters, then let them know where their money is going.
On the other hand, we have to note the fact that this is being done curiously in an election year, and these ministries represent literally millions of Christians in this country. Regardless of what you may think about the theology or doctrine of any of the ministries on the list, when a politician targets a particular religious group - especially at this level - it should be a serious cause for concern. Can you imagine how the media - and the population in general - would react if a ranking Senator called for the rounding up of the top six Muslim groups in America? Or the top six gay or lesbian organizations? How would the NAACP react if Grassley targeted the top six African-American organizations?
Why am I suddenly reminded of Joseph McCarthy? I can understand an investigation into a single organization with the caveat that there is reliable evidence of wrongdoing. But when a politician targets such a large number of organizations that represents so many Americans - all from a single religious group - then we need to worry.
I have no idea of what caused him to do this, although the name Ole Anthony keeps showing up in news reports. Anthony assisted Dianne Sawyer in her exposé of Robert Tilton and two other Dallas-based televangelists, W.V. Grant and Larry Lea, for the ABC news magazine PrimeTime Live. Since that time, Anthony has been involved in investigations of numerous religious figures, working with programs such as NBC Dateline and 60 Minutes. I don't know Anthony or his motivations, (many of which maybe sincere and helpful) but a book does exist which purports to "expose" his organization. Perhaps the senator should look into that.
I wonder if Anthony also exposes Islamic organizations that funnel money into questionable causes? And if Grassley is concerned about organizations like that, instead of organizations that millions of Americans love and follow?
Even if any of the organizations are found to be violating IRS rules, why a powerful Republican attacking a large group of Christians during an election year is beyond me. Right now, the smartest thing a Democratic presidential candidate could do is call for a stop to this insulting action.
Remember - Joseph McCarthy targeted Communists - a group that we were legitimately terrified of back in the 1950's. But we stopped him. Now, I think it's time to stop Senator Grassley.
Read the letters posted on his website of the exact letters to each ministry. This guy clearly has insider info on each one.
I seriously doubt he has insider information. For example, the money used to purchase KCM's citation CX team came from the Citation CX fund which was specifically collected for the plane. There is no way ANYONE could have misunderstood what the money was for. This was not a one time deal. Furthermore, Kenneth Copeland Ministries has and has had for years 2 separate independent auditors that they work with every year to make sure they are following the law. Finally, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, along with their attorney went to the IRS and requested them to audit them. Doesn't Billie Graham and the Pope also have a jet? Phil Cooke is correct that this is a big concern regardless of your religious affiliation. Our constitution says that "Congress shall make NO law in regards to religion". It is not up to our congress to make laws for us. The only thing Sen. Grassley had the right to do is investigate to see if the unconstitutional law on churches was working. But he is asking for more than that. He is asking for member names , addresses, etc. Senator Grassely could have and should have gone to the IRS for his investigation. Instead he chose to make a public spectacle. How would you like it if he did this to the Pope or Billie Graham. How about if he requested the name/address/ and donation information of every donor to Billie Graham for the purpose of making it public. Kenneth Copeland Ministries has nothing to hide. They have followed the law. Just because someone is investigating does not mean the person is guilty.
I just downloaded the letters sent to each ministry. Phew! I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy! There are very detailed requests for information going back several years. Large teams of people are going to be burning the midnight oil just responding to each question.
However, the general issues raised in the letters are important. I have access to more financial information about my phone company than my own church. The phone company doesnt enjoy non-profit status, 10% of my income, or vast amounts of my free time.
Furthermore, many ministries seem to have a complex web of legal enitites (some non-profit, others for profit). These relationships need to be fully transparent. For example, if a non-profit organisation is a customer of a commmercial entity controled by someone who influences both organisations - you HAVE to start asking questions!
I don't agree with you on this. A lot of ministries who are tax-exempt do have for profit entities and for example like their bookstores, they are for profit, but why will they be fully transparent to a customer, do you go to your local walmart and kmart and ask them to open their books before you shop, they have nonprofit foundations. And about having more information with your phone company than your own church, I thought you get a report of your giving every year from your church. Have you ever asked them to let you see the overall spending budget? Probably not. These guys have told Senator Grassley to get the information from the IRS if he want to see where their money is going and I fully understand that, let them go there, because that who the church report their spending and earnings to the IRS and since he is in governement, it may be easier for him to go across the street to the IRS and pull their records from there. But here is the thing, no one never questions or look into those large muslim organizations and do those type of things to them, and most of them probably funneling money. opps shhhhh we dont want to talk about that
Whether this "intrusion" is a good or bad thing I don't know, but what does Joyce Meyer need with a $23,000 toilet? That was an interesting inquiry and it seems her and the copelands have a lot of things to explain to the finance committee. I think accountability is needed, but why has it taken so long for these people to be held accountable that finally the government is stepping in and being the cynic I am, these allegations will probably be found to be true...making these leaders look even more like con artists-which is probably not good for the public perception of Christianity....well even my perception of "Christian" leadership..
The "Antique Marble Commode" is my favorite, hands down. Yes dear readers - I've seen Joyce's commode. It was an antique donated to her ministry and sits in the lobby of her office. Lobby you ask? That's right. Look at these pictures of antique commodes:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/Antique_Commode.html
In the antiques world, a "commode" is an antique chest of drawers. I think you'll see that Grassley and Anthony are going to be embarrassed with this one... But you can see how the damage gets done. You accuse someone in the national media, and whether or not you have your facts correct or not, the damage to their reputation is done. Even in pursuit of a good ideal, this is a terrible way to go about it.
LOL... That is funny (regarding the commode).
See, my opinion differs a little. If the facts DO come out, and this type of information is what is disseminated (misconceptions cleared up), then it will restore confidence that the people have ALREADY lost in these ministries.
I believe that 3 of the 6 listed really are chosen because of their "back-scratching" with Richard Roberts. Three are board members that were part of the "rubber-stamping" in that organization. Keep in mind there is a lot of board overlap in some of these ministries. Money flows between these ministries in ways that people in the banking industry would be alerted to as "money laundering flags". I am not alleging that it IS money laundering, just that the appearance would be such.
The lack of diversity on the ORU BOR is possibly also part of what encited some further investigation into the 3. Possibly more were chosen that just the three to either show differences between the ministries, or maybe it is a witch hunt. Either way, I think it will be good for some, and very rough ride for others.
I am not saying that in a legal sense this isn't scary. However, if a ministry IS being a poor steward of a huge purse, you can count on the fact that God has already provided conviction. If the conviction has not been heeded, then they are going to find that correction may be coming from a legal level.
Well said, Phil. Thank you for the education on what an antique commode is. I would have thought it was a toilet too.
Nanny, exactly, what is it that you feel that she should have done with that antique commode? Sell it and give to the poor? If the donor had wanted her to do that, wouldn't she or he have sold it herself and just donated the money? Didn't Judas criticize Jesus for that very same thing? What was Jesus' response to that? Who did Judas turn out to be? Has the thought occurred to you that someone was trying to be nice to someone else? The bottom line here is that it's none of your business. That person specifically set out to give that person that item. How he or she intended for it to be used is between that person and Joyce Meyer, not you or anyone else.
As far as government getting involved, the government doesn't have the right to tell us what we believe and the minute they try - you should be very afraid. Can you say dictatorship? The senator only has a right to investigate if his laws are working. If this were about whether they were following the law, he would have backed off on at least one of the ministries when he received thier responses in November.
Have you read all of his letters to the ministries and what he intends to do? What does making the names of people that belong to that faith public have to do with whether the ministry followed the law? Why does he need the names? How would you feel about it if you were baptist and he wanted all of your names and info?
And as for the donkey comment that Grassely made: Someone said that about Billie Graham when he went to England a long time ago. Apparently, they were offended that he road a boat. Jesus rode boats. It's stupid. Jets and Cars were not available in his time so who's to say what he would have ridden in on. Furthermore, if Senator Grassely feels that strongly about it, where is his donkey?
You need to understand it is not a "toilet" it is a commode. A commode is an antique chest of drawers not a porceline throne! In times past (way back) people would place a big sort of bowl on top of it for you to wash your face in and also to squat over to relieve your self. Thus the term commode was reasigned to the modern day toilet as it was removed from the bedroom "commode" and a new device was placed there for you to siy on and flush away your troubles. Please stop listening to the main stream press as the will not tell you the whole truth. Those who loveth and maketh a lie will have their part in the lake of fire.
Phil,The only people citing "McCarthyism" are the uninformed, ignorant or leftist ,which is slightly redundant. Which are you? There is a new book on the subject check with Ann Coulter.Thank you for your insight and caution on the gov. vs. televangelist.larryplano,tx.
Dear Phil,Your recollection of Anthony's helping ABC's PrimeTime Live "expose" Tilton, Lea, and Grant is accurate. Unfortunately, I was involved with Anthony during the "investigations" and cannot legally go into any of the details, however, I can point you to several articles written by Glenna Whitley for the Dallas Observer which explore (aka: expose) in detail some of his (Anthony's) shenanigans!BTW, ABC is again in hot water over more "evidence" obtained from Anthony... They should have learned their lesson back in the early 90's - a lesson that cost the ABC/Disney folks hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees hopelessly defending Anthony and his "investigators" (of which I was one).Apart from the First and Sixteenth Amendment issues, Anthony's hatred of all televangelists has been his only drum for the last twenty-plus years. In the decade that I was involved with Anthony and his "Gospel of Poverty" church/Bible Study/Cult, I can personally attest to the fact that we never, during those many years, investigated or "looked into" any Islamic group or individual Sheik. All of the 501 c3 Charity's energies were focused to give Anthony a platform to be the "Giant" slayer. (Yes, TFI is organized as a charity not a church.) Alas, we'll be seeing and hearing a lot of him in the weeks to come… He's finally a member of the band."C'est plus qu'un crime, c'est une faute."
OK, so it's a Chest-of-drawers, not a water-closet. Does it change the fact that $23K of money donated to 'ministry' was spent on an old, albeit expensive, piece of furniture to sit in a lobby? Is that what the donor(s) thought thier money would go to?
Why does it being an election year make a difference?
Maybe it is time we stopped to think that God is using the vehicle of the Senate to end the false teachings of the prosperity gospel. Study of the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom don't mention health, safety, (worldly) prosperity, or standards of living. Maybe the Senate is only fastening the rope that holds the millstone to the neck of those who have deceived millions with the false gospel.
The money wasn't donated, the chest was, and it was donated to sit exactly where it is. The fact that it's an election year speaks to motivation, and is therefore important. Read my next post to answer your third question.
Do you know the donor personally and what they intended it for? I don't, so I really couldn't make the comment you just stated. It sounds like you've assumed that donor intended for her to sell the commode and use the money in a different manner. If I gave a 23,000 commode and someone sold it and spent the money, I'd probably be mad.
@ DLM2: Jesus never mentioned health? Hmm...I seem to remember something about Him healing others and telling His disciples to go heal the sick and preach the good news (gospel) to the poor. I guess He might not have MENTIONED it because he was to busy doing his Father's work. I apologize to Phil for not staying on topic but I had to get that off my chest.
Phil, I think your allegiance to some of these organizations -- who perhaps you've worked with in the past (which you should reveal in a "full disclosure" statement, BTW) OR just that they represent some of the folks you might-could be working with in the future -- is leading you to make some really wild accusations here (McCartheyism?).
If you somehow find biblical grounds to condone the lavish lifestyles of these rich and famous TV evangelists, then just come out and say it. Those of us who highly respect your views would simply have to agree to disagree on this point. But I think it's wrong of you to launch a campaign to "stop Senator Grassley." Let the investigation take its course and see what comes of it.
Since 9/11, I think the U.S. government has done plenty to investigate Muslim groups in this country. To suggest that there is some singular "anti-Christian" focus in this new investigation is misleading and wrong, as well. I hope you know this pushback is coming with a lot of respect and love from me to you.
Shalom.
Good questions Steve. As far as "full disclosure," I don't work for any of the six ministries he's listed, and don't have plans to work for any of them in the future. We did the re-branding for Joyce Meyer about 5 or 6 years ago, and have a good personal relationship with them today, although we don't do any work with them. We also re-branded Paula White Ministries about 4 years ago, but haven't worked with them since. Our post division did a show open for Creflo Dollar about 10 years ago, but nothing else. You can see much of this and other client work on our site at cookepictures.com.
My comments don't come from having a relationship with any of these ministries, since many of our clients would have serious disagreements with these particular ones. We work with churches and ministries from a wide theological and doctrinal spectrum.
Beyond that, I think my best response would be my next blog post. Check that out and it should answer most of the issues you brought up.
Phil - Thanks for the clarification on the commode-a-drawers. I look forward to your next post.
Ryan- I believe that you have either misread my post, or are building a straw man. Allow me to clarify my thoughts. Christ indeed healed the sick. Christ indeed continues to heal the sick today. I typed in haste and didn't elaborate perhaps as much as needed in my first post. However, Jesus never promised health. That's not the same thing as saying "Jesus didn't/doesn't heal people". My issue with many of the Grassley Six is that in their teachings, they lead people to believe that Jesus did promise health, safety, wealth, security and a number of other things - if they have faith. And what better way to show faith than to send cash? It is at best distasteful, and at worst heresy. If these ministries are legit, and doing what they say they are, a senate investigation won't hurt - and might help prove their legitimacy.
Sorry for pulling the emergency brake on the topic. Feel free to resume normal broadcasting.
I am not really surprised that these ministries are drawing fire, they always have. They have been under attack for decades. It is a stretch for me to believe that they would not be above board in their finances. They know they are being watched - by God first and then the government. Would God allow these very "public" ministries operate for decades if they were not being honest? The Copelands have been in ministry for over 40 years. Jim and Tammy Faye have long been off the scene...
As far as some people suggesting that they are building their ministries or "personal fortunes" on the backs of the "poorest" of people. How many "poor people" would there have to be? I guess it would would take a "multi-million" poor people giving every month to each of these mentioned. What are the chances?? There are surveys that also show that well over 90% of Christians don't tithe. How else could these ministers be this sucessful unless God was behind them?
Don't people that are making a positive difference in peoples live deserve to be rewarded? The thinking that people have to be broke, busted and disgusted to somehow be more spiritual flies in the face of the Gospel (Good News). The spirit of poverty and religion are rampant in most of the Church today.
DLM2 - Just so that it's clear - I've never worked for any of them, but I am a part of the faith movement and have been for a long time. I'm only familiar with 2 of the 6, which is Creflo and Kenneth. I've never seen what you describe below taught as an actual teaching- especially not at EMIC. I've been to many healing classes and healing schools and have never heard it there. I've got a ton of tapes on the subject from them (some where purchased, some tapes where given out for free) and it's not on those either. I have the healing scripture tapes that you are suppose to meditate on and it's not there either. Now I have heard allot of misquotes on the subject, but there has never been anything taught except the opposite was taught by brother Copeland. He did a teaching on a prophet in the old testimate who tried to accept cash for a miracle and got into allot of trouble with God. I really don't think you are familiar with it as much as you thnk you are. It sounds like you just want to use congress to force people to believe your doctrines. I'm not interested - at all.
Some of the arguments presented by those supporters of rich evangelicals are simply astonishing. First of all, ministries are not being "watched" by the government as claimed. The IRS non-profit division is the lowest staffed section of the IRS. Second, God allows a lot of things to happen, regardless of who does it. Third, businesses would die for any enterprise in which people gave them money without taxes due on them, and without they having to give any real product in return, other than a token cd or book which costs cents to make. In addition, a lot of enterprises are successful without God. The most astonishing statement to me though is that these people who engage in ministerial work should be rewarded with great wealth and property. That is such a typically hypocritcal twisting of the Gospel. Remember the passage, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to reach heaven"?
I think this action is a cynical Republican political (why would any Republican investigate evangelicals, who vote overwhelmingly conservative republican right?) ploy to prempt any government action that might be coming down the pike. Why? Because there might be a great deal of truth that these ministries have become more like corporations and are being used to creat profitable enterprises or to move money around. Better to get it out now before the election to make it a non-issue and of course, it looks so much better that a Republican led the way.
"The most astonishing statement to me though is that these people who engage in ministerial work should be rewarded with great wealth and property. That is such a typically hypocritcal twisting of the Gospel. Remember the passage, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to reach heaven"?
As far as being rewarded with great wealth....I'm for any person being rewarded to the fullest extent that God wants for their lives. As for a rich man and heaven this passage is talking about a persons attitude toward money not money itself.
I pray that the whole truth does come out in the national media. Then hopefully it will be known the multi-million dollars that these ministries give away themselves. I honestly hope there will be a published record of where all this money goes. To have the attitude that all that these people care about is money demonstrates to me that the vast majority of their critics really don't know much about them. Most of these critics haven't taken the time to get to know them. I used to be one of their critics and quite frankly I didn't know anything about them. The only thing that I knew was what the other critics were saying about them. I'm sure this is the case here.
The famous verse "the love of money..." is usually thrown around. Let me ask a question, "is it posssible to have money and not love it?" Believe it or not there are people who view money as a tool to reach people with the Gospel. That is these ministries primary desire. I can talk about their desire because I know them. I know them because I have watched them for years. There is also a God thing called discernment. God does grant His kids wisdom and discernment concerning people and situations.
Are there some people in the ministry for the money. Of course. Read the Bible. It's always been that way and always will. "God is not mocked a person will reap what they sow." If I don't agree with someone or their lifestyle I pray about it and ask God to show me. If I find out that I'm wrong I ask for forgiveness. If the Lord shows me that the other person is in error I pray for them.
As for "...hypocritical twisting of the Gospel". Does anyone really know what Gospel means? What would be a correct teaching of the Gospel?
That is such a typically hypocritcal twisting of the Gospel. Remember the passage, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to reach heaven"?
Im responding to this verse, I dont think you have it all down the next verse says "But with god all things are possible" But again arn't they doing what god called them to do... Preach the gospel, and providing an atmosphere where they can choose to except christ as there lord and savior?? And the finance thing... god laws of finances and the worlds are TOTALY diffrent. gods are giving, and sowing, and you shall reap a harvest. like a farmer, he plants one seed of corn, and reaps an adundance of corn.. Kinda funny, but what are you goin up against them for, arn't they teaching out of the bible word for word. I think your issuse should really be with god, because they are just messengers. talk with god about it and have him show you the truth.
I think it has to be pointed out that a ministry or minister is not just "any person", he or she is a servant of God whose purpose it is to serve. They will be judged much more than others because of thier vocation.
Its true many ministries give some of thier money away, but by the size of some of these megachurches, the facilities, and the payroll (one church had to lay off 40 employees from a staff of 160, just from the marketing department; the marketing department? In a church?), I can't see how they can give away much. Some non profits keep up to 80 percent of money coming for administrative purposes that often include perks for top officials.
I think people should expect accountability from these ministries like any other enterprise.
Of course financial accountability is a must. Most of these ministries financial info can be found from a link on their homepage.
As for being a servant and serving etc., Jesus gives His view of the topic in Matthew 25:13-30. It is a very interesting read, especially verse 29 which He says, "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will be furnished richly so that he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away"
For some reason some people believe that "religious" people or you could say those doing God's work belong towards the bottom of the salary ladder. So could it then be said that the less money a minister has the more he can be trusted and the more spiritual he is?
No one is talking about being at bottom of ladder or being poor. They are talking baout abusing poor people to become rich and not have accountability over the money MINISTRY IS SERVICE like the slavation Army or World Vision, did u ever se Billy Graham grovelling for $$ isnt he blessed too? They abuse, $$ and Jesus said u can NOt serve God and money, he cameto preach the gospel to the poor he says those who are rich should give to the poor which they dont do or approve. The taking away of rewards is not about money dummy, it is at the Judgment seat of Christ money is filty lucre, america got rich off of slaves. Hollywood from porn so $$ is not a sign of blessing drug dealing brings in 100's millions go to colombia or wherever and u can see. USA is richest country on earth, by world standards peple u refer to as poo will be considered rich in india, africa, middle east. THEY ARE FALSE PROFITS PERIOD!
GRASSLEY IS REPUBLICAN BY THE WAY SO DONT BLAME LIBERAL MEDIA AND SECULARISTS PLEASE EVIL IS EVIL ISLAMIC, ATHEIST, CHRITIAN, WHATEVER ISNT THE POINT. The mone y is tax free congress has right to investigate.
I am classifying this as a bit of banter here...
Unfortunately, libraryman, I am not so sure that you have completely disclosed your qualifications for how you "know them". Either you are part of one of the camps directly, or maybe you are using your "discernment" but this is NOT the same as seeing it from a connected, yet unbiased viewpoint.
I can only speak of experience at ORU, and I don't care to re-iterate again what I have said previously in the comments sections of this blog but those comments can be found.
I think my comments about what I experienced behind the scenes at ORU have been somewhat backed up by recent developments that RR has received a vote of no confidence by tenured teachers, etc. This also gives quite a bit of credibility to the tenured professor(s) that have been allegedly wrongfully terminated.
I DID see what I discerned as "love of money, and love of the power that money brings". I am not saying that I didn't also see some good intentions. I just saw an attitude of fear of administration in employees, and an unteachable spirit in the leadership.
I think the camel demonstration was to be taken quite literally, but I also understand that the "eye of a needle" was a small entrance to a city which required a lot of work to get a camel through. The problem with money is that accumulation of it generates power. With money and power, it is easy to become spoiled. It is easy to lose focus, and it is very difficult to maintain humility.
God does reward the faithful. However, His rewards are not ALWAYS monetary. And there is a theme in the seed-faith / WOF teachings that is not quite so lined up with the balance that the scriptures teach as a whole.
I could not have stated it better, Good Commentary, especially on the love of money and the power it brings. I can't see how anyone who studies Scripture can condone such Pharisee (note: Jesus in the Temple) like behavior regarding material wealth under the guise of doing God's work.
Hey GC I've got a reply coming for you I've got to shorten it. And Jimbo, I think you maybe edging a little over into the motivation area. We don't know what the motivation is behind what is going on and that would be judging. That would be a no-no. If God's kids aren't playing nice He will get their attention. It's not like He didn't see this coming.
Hey GC,
"I am not so sure that you have completely disclosed your qualifications", I didn't realize that I needed to be qualified...sorry. By qualifications to you mean staff at one of these places? If is is I've got to say no. However I have been a pastor, board member and my wife and I currently have our own ministry.
Before I go any further, I do want to mention that it is not my intent to defend these ministries as it is to encourage people to re-evaluate their attitude about money.
I liked what you said, "there is a theme in the seed-faith / WOF teachings that is not quite so lined up with the balance that the scriptures teach as a whole." My question is what is really the underlying issue here. It seems to me that some of the posts are concerned about the wealth of most of these people. Could it be a "they have it and I don't" attitude? I'm just asking. It's understandable to feel that way especially with home foreclosures, gas prices and insurance premiums going through the roof for the average Joe. It's easy to become aggravated.
At the same time, the issue that I want to make is that God wants His kids to be successful. That's what prosperity means. Who doesn't want to be successful? Shalom is translated peace in our English bibles. The peace of the Bible means completeness, safety, soundness (in body), health, prosperity, tranquility, contentment and friendship. That is what is meant by the prosperity Gospel. Again, the point I want to make is God is a prosperous and abundant God. Does that mean that having an abundance of money is wrong? Not according to the Scripture. You mention, "The problem with money is that accumulation of it generates power. With money and power, it is easy to become spoiled. It is easy to lose focus, and it is very difficult to maintain humility." Yeah, I go along with that. It is a matter of focusing on what the primary role of money is for. Christians have the habit of coming down on the negative side of having a lot of money and we ignore the positive side. There most definitely is a positive side. Money is to be used as a tool to further the heart of God. Deut 8:18 says, "But you shall earnestly remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day." The bottom line is that it takes money for missions, for feeding the poor, to help Katrina victims, to provide for orphanages, for jail ministries etc. We as a church view an abundance of money as a curse instead of a blessing to help others and it needs to stop.
The Biblical instruction concerning how to handle a situation that is allegedly happening at ORU or any other ministry is Mat 18 and then to pray for them and place them in God's hands, not take them to court (1 Cor 6:1). I imagine that this is the approach that is happening. As for the people taking legal action, it makes me wonder about their heart attitude. Again, I choose to keep my mouth shut. Yet, I have a very difficult time keeping quiet about the poverty mentality that is so prevalent in the church.
It is very interesting to hear all sides of this debate but please know that there are many church denominations that do not get paid for their services to the Lord and spend the majority of their money to provide for missionary work and relief to God's people in and outside of the church.
Yes there is great work in the teaching, preaching, and expounding of scripture to God's people. I have known many individuals personally who have been fighting for their lives healthwise and their emotional and mental health because of life's challenges and injustices who have received a word at the right moment that kept them alive. Let's not forget the practical wisdom of life. For His people perish for a lack of knowledge. The importance of training, equipping and edifying can be key to someone's survival.
Because we live in a privileged society and country do not forget about those who are suffering in other parts of the world who are living on the mere Word and hope they receive where none other is available. We are a global community and it is only a matter of time before what affects one part of the world begins to translate over into other parts of the world. There is great power in the spoken word for both good and evil.
On the other hand, Christ's three years of service was a clear demonstration of the practicality of His ministry. He said He is the way, the truth and the life. He sacrificed Himself on the cross, washed the feet of His disciples, and came to serve man. Feeding the poor, providing loaves and fish before He taught the word, healing the lame, sick, deaf, dumb and blind and even raising the dead. He cared for the widow, through His prophet who provided her last meal to him and in return blessed her with an overflowing of oil (tangible and annointing) derived from the olive tree, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing did man pour forth unto her for her finacial well-being and security.
However, with experience in the financial systems of large transnational companies and their employee compensation plans and in ministry at all levels for almost two decades, I truly believe that the compensation plans for all top level executives need to be addressed, both non-profit and for profit. Case in point...the chief executive of Countrywide Home loans who profited with hundreds of millions of dollars, cashing out, while his company struggles to balance out the books in the mortgage/housing crisis. There should be a law against this and a time frame by which a directly involved stockholder is or isn't allowed to dump his stocks if the company is in financial crisis.
The question is... What is fair and justifiable compensation for running and directing large mega/media church organizations of this size? How many organizations are run under the main umbrella and what would be the compensation for each role performed by the top leaders in their various capacities? How many roles does the top leader have? Look to best practices across the board of industries (profit and non-profit) wherein fair and reasonable compensation will reveal itself. They should be compensated in fair exchange for the work they perform. And if they can afford million dollar houses from their salaries, so be it; but if living in excess from the monies donated for the ministry, not okay. This should be used for provisions for God's needy.
As far as I'm concerned...sales of books belong to the author as long as it was funded or paid by the publisher or the author via their personal salary and designated as a for profit activity. However, a portion of the proceeds should be willingly donated back to their ministry as an offering to the Lord, just like everyone else, in appreciation and in humility for the abundance and blessing the ministry has provided/afforded them. If under the expense and banner of the non-profit, the proceeds should be given back to the ministry in it's entirety and/or a percentage taken for the time it took to write the book.
In consideration of monetary benefit to Kingdom leaders; the money received from donors/supporters to these ministries belongs to the Lord, period. The discretionary use of funds belongs to the Holy Spirit and a common consensus as determined by a committee of people reflecting the needs of the people being served by the ministry. Including provisions for those struggling within the very walls of the church as well as those on the outside and the community at large.
As far as non-profits are concerned legislation should be put forth that ups the antie. As in...a minimum of 50% of all tax deductible monies received must be disbursed to the proposed purpose of the charity, excluding salaries and overhead. To require merely 10% is an insult to our intelligence and basic common ethics of sound and reasonable financial responsibility and stewardship for a non-profit. This should be imposed for every non-profit church or entity, for that matter.
In the end, I believe the enemy is behind the attack but the Lord is using this to hold our leaders accountable for their proper and reasonable use of funds, discipline of humility, standing up for truth and justice no matter what the cost, and to increase the provisions and stewardship to all His people, both local and abroad. And to instill the proper and godly perspective of viewing monetary gain as not an end to the means... but rather, the means to the end of service to our Lord and humanity!
Most non-profit organizations use 40 - 60% of their budget on salaries which support the people who are being freed to focus on the mission of the organization. That includes local churches. Excluding salaries and overhead then assumes the salaries and overhead doesn't promote the purpose of the organization. Sounds like a well-meaning objective but it fails in my experience on the basis of defining what a ministry is and does.
To "A Chosen One", I congratulate you for being the only one who made any kind of sense.
I want to add that Grassley is NOT attacking religious freedom, he is simply trying to find out whether or not these megachurces are playing by the not-for-profit rules. If anyone needs to know what those guidelines are should visit http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html The megachurches don't want government interference in their financial affairs, but it was the government that granted them this not-for-profit status. Furthermore, it was because of the governments generosity in granting them the not-for-profit status that these churches have made millions, but there are guidelines to follow. All Senator Grassley is doing is checking in to see if they are abusing those guidelines since it does SEEM that they are - we won't know unless Grassley investigates, but his investigation has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It seems that many of these megachurches believe that a not-for-profit status means that they have the freedom to do whatever you want because the government cannot investigate. Oh yes they can.
Apparently the website that I included in the above post does not work, but if you go to www.irs.gov, then click on 'charities and non-profits', then click 'churches and religious orgs' it will take you to a page with literature on the laws that non-profit churches must follow. This is coming directly from the IRS so there can be no argument.
I am of the opinion that Joyce Myers 23,000 dollar toilet was money so to speak....flushed down the toilet.....I could think of a number of ways that money could have been better spent to help people in need, I know you need a toilet, but a 60 dollar one would do just as good a job as a 23,000 dollar one....I am a Christian, and I think these prosperity preachers have needed to be investigated for a long time, this is long over due, and Jan and Paul Crouch, and many others as well need to be included! My best to Senator Grassley, if these people have nothing to hide then it should not bother them.
I totally agree with you that this investigation is long overdue, but Joyce Meyer's commode is a piece of furniture like a bureau (not a toilet) ;-). Still, whether it is a bureau or a toilet, $23,000 is excessive, especially since that kind of excess money should have been given to the needy - they are afterall a non-profit religious organization - and they are non-profits for the purpose of serving the needy, NOT for filling their ministry with valuable furniture, purchasing private jets, mansions etc. See my message above regarding the IRS guidelines for non-profits.
Seems Creflo alone is fighting this:
Televangelist fights Senate inquiryOne of six Christian ministries under investigation by a Senate committee is rebuffing inquiries into its spending, challenging the panel's watchdog role over religious groups, The Associated Press has learned. A lawyer for the preacher Creflo Dollar of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta asked Sen. Charles Grassley in a letter to either refer the matter to the IRS or get a subpoena. The AP obtained the letter Wednesday.
Money laudering is already done within the banking system....federal reserve. You need only to check out this on the internet..it is blasted everywhere....Our government is corrupt...who knows whom to trust anymore...This thing that has been done to these ministries is a plot......from the enemy.
There may be some things in these ministries that need to be corrected........but there is something bigger involved.......more than the public knows....
Not for nothing but Abraham's household would have looked like the Copeland Compound, including the cattle.
There is a bigger problem, signing up for the tax exemption in the first place, none of the disciples did; and Jesus only said render to Caesar what is Caesar's, he never said make an application to him.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!
Regarding Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Guidelines and Compliance - Just four weeks prior to Senator Grassley's inquiry, on October 10, 2007, Joyce Meyer Ministries received a letter from the Department of the Treasury (IRS) informing the ministry that it is in complete compliance with IRS regulations and guidelines that govern the organization. (Click here to view the IRS letter). This conclusion was reached after Joyce Meyer Ministries' leadership voluntarily participated in an in-depth IRS review of ministry operations, as well as, personal information related to Dave and Joyce Meyer. As the current requested information is similar, Joyce Meyer Ministries is confident this detailed review by the IRS will serve as a tremendous resource of information for Senator Grassley's inquiry. Regarding Compensation of Dave and Joyce Meyer - Joyce Meyer Ministries takes extra steps to ensure trust and confidence in giving for the partners and friends of the ministry. Each year, a complete, independent financial audit of the ministry's activities is provided and made public. Joyce Meyer's personal compensation is a part of this audit and the information provided. (Click here to view 2003-2006 financial reports.) Joyce Meyer does not receive any royalties or any form of compensation as a result of ministry sales of audio and video tapes, books, CDs, DVDs or any other form of media. In addition, Joyce Meyer does not receive the honorariums personally given to her as a result of the numerous speaking engagements she accepts each year. She requests these honorariums be given directly to the ministry. Joyce Meyer is a New York Times #1 bestselling author, and her books have appeared on the New York Times bestsellers list multiple times. As a result, she is compensated by royalties produced from the sale of these books via bookstores worldwide and other retail and online outlets outside of Joyce Meyer Ministries. Because of the vast success of her books and other related materials that are produced independently of Joyce Meyer Ministries, Joyce Meyer is able to personally give generously back into the global media and mission outreaches of the organization. In the past four years, she has made donations to the ministry in amounts greater than she and her husband, Dave, have received in compensation from the ministry. (Click here to see letters of verification.) This is evidence of her commitment to excellence in ministry and proof that she would never ask the partners and friends of the ministry to do something that she is not willing and ready to do herself. Regarding the Purchase of a $23,000 Commode- While many have mistakenly associated this piece of furniture with a common household toilet, this particular term actually refers to the classic definition of commode identified by Webster's Dictionary as, "a tall elegant chest of drawers." In 2001, when the ministry moved into its current 150,000-square-foot headquarters located in Fenton, Missouri, a significant amount of furniture was needed for the larger facility. This "commode" was one piece of a total of sixty-eight pieces purchased from a single supplier to finish out the interior of the offices. A total of $261,498.21 was paid for these sixty-eight (the majority were significant in size) pieces of furniture. The $23,000 purchase price of this chest of drawers was actually an errant value assigned by the selling agent after the transaction was complete for the entire sixty-eight piece lot. Joyce Meyer Ministries humbly regrets not paying closer attention to specific "assigned values" placed on those pieces that have now led to gross misrepresentations. Joyce Meyer Ministries takes financial stewardship and accountability very seriously, and this oversight serves as an opportunity to only improve future practices. Regarding the Stewardship of Ministry Funds for Ministry Purposes - To ensure the most effective use of ministry funds, Joyce Meyer Ministries has never accrued debt and is committed to operating debt-free for future endeavors. In 2006, 82 percent of all ministry funds received were used for outreach and program services directed at reaching people with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and meeting the physical needs of the less fortunate all over the world. The ministry used 13 percent for administrative purposes, and just 5 percent was used for fund-raising activities. For 2007, the ministry is on track to maintain this level of stewardship and, because of the generosity of its partners and friends, will be increasing its global missions budget to more than $28 million. These specific mission endeavors to people of developing nations and the USA include feeding the poor, providing clothing for children and families, prisoner outreaches, drilling freshwater wells, ministering to the elderly, building new homes for the homeless, and caring for widows and orphans. (Click here to view reports of these mission endeavors.)
I assume this is a statement from the ministry in question itself. It would be nice to have a link or a source to make that clear.
Seems like you got beef with a certain kind of ministry group, is there a story behind it? I don't think it is a bad thing (you having beef with certain ministries) as many people have been burnt by church ministries directly or indirectly and often times it is coming from leadership issues known or unknown but hardly ever dealt with. Do you have any work solutions to this problem? Is there something people can do who are in this kind of situation? Do people need to stop going to Church for bad leaders to get the message? You may have some answers and it will be good to put some of them down and get it implemented. I think you will also need to be willing to pay the price if this really going to be worth it.The Body of Christ needs a lot of help in this area especially in the US and UK because of their influence around the world.
Does Joyce Meyer pay taxes on the royalties she earns from the sale of her books? I am asking this because you said that her books are produced independently of Joyce Meyer Ministries, which is the non-profit organization.
Book revenue can be sales taxed depending upon the laws of the state where the operation is based. Even ministries that give away books for donations are required to assess the value of what they are "giving" away and they can only issue a contribution statement for that gift for the portion that is in excess of the value of the book. The portion of the gift given to the ministry for the value of the book or other item has to be treated as taxable income. For this reason many ministries establish other corporations etc. so that their reporting to the IRS or the state and local taxation authorities is limited to that and the main ministry maintains their corporate veil and/or tax-exempt status.
I guess I may come across at times as having a beef with some ministries.
I've served as an assistant Pastor, solo pastor in a small church, district worker, church administrator and then also been an elder, and board chairman in other ministries.
I'm not currently in active ministry although I remain a member and participant in the last church I formally worked in. I'm currently working on a Master's Degree in Organizational Leadership. I've been asked on a few occassions to be a consultant to some local churches and ministries and this is something I have some passion about.
I've seen good and bad and know some of the abuses that take place within Churches and non-profits. While I work not to become jaded, I don't think it helps the cause of Christ to sugercoat some of those issues. We need to be about excellence in every area and accept when there are issues that need to be addressed.
Maybe just maybe you can do something about it. You could just be one of the people that starts/initiates transformational change in this area. It is a tough area to deal with but needs to be done because this problem cannot just continue to pass down unchecked - too many people getting hurt. I love leaders and I feel that most of them are just doing what others before them have done because that was what they know and that was what worked and they cannot see any other way of doing things. It is a heavy price to pay if one is going to go up this road but I think there will be a lot of supporters coming out eventually. The death of an era brings a new one - the question is whether it will be better?
I've done some things in that arena already and am hoping to expand things moving forward.
Coming into ministry I was a very idealistic young man with visions of what ministry and the people involved in it would be. Now as a middle aged man with some scars and horror stories to tell (some very positive stories to tell as well) I've come to realize that people in ministry, myself included, are still people with all the weaknesses and flaws that come along with it.
What makes ministry especially challenging, in my opinion, is that the freedom from scrutiny and accountability that exists in many situations whicch allows for some spectacularly innovative and successful ministries, also carries with it huge risks for abuse and misuse.
Paul in his epistles, highlights the dangers of building ministries based upon personalities. There is something in human nature and psychology that wants to follow strong leaders. Paul addressed that by warning against identifying factions in Christianity based upon the strong leaders within the emerging Church of his day. Whether Peter or Apollos then, or the many different leaders that could be cited in similar roles today, with leadership comes responsibility and often times the organizations that build around those leaders are not carefully looked at or structured to guard against the temptations that come with it. Too, many followers are loyal to a fault unwilling to accept that leaders are human and need structure and accountibility surrounding them to provide the support they need to avoid falling. Ironically, some of those who argue strongly for indescriminant trust and grace are indirectly enabling some carnal leaders or providing huge temptations for sincere leaders who need the structure for their own personal and spiritual well-being.
Phil has some good entries back a few months ago relating to the challenges of second-generation ministries that you should take a look at if this interests you.
In addition to what you say (Too, many followers are loyal to a fault unwilling to accept that leaders are human and need structure and accountibility surrounding them to provide the support they need to avoid falling), I would like to expand that what these ministries are doing when they give millions to the poor does not make them perfect individuals who never err. They are not perfect because they are only human. One needs only to take into account our own government. They too have responded to disaster relief by doling out millions upon millions of dollars worldwide. They do it in the spirit of brotherhood and whether or not their donations are attached to a church, I am sure God does look favorably upon them for doing it, because they are doing what God would want all of us to do, and YET our government is as crooked as can be. What I'm trying to say is that 'giving' does not make a preacher or a president or our neighbor across the street, or even the Pope inerrant or faultless. We all make mistakes and followers should be aware of this instead of blindly following these ministers to a fault.
See
http://www.southernappeal.org/index.php/archives/2613
for an entirely unrelated group's concerns about the nature of the Grassley investigation. These do not espouse the same belief system as those being investigated. There is a genuine issue here. Our freedoms give us redress. The senate has recently taken up looking into all sorts of issues which puzzle me, frankly, like looking into sports figures, etc.
Please also note the main whistle blower in this, whose own operation looks to need some investigation. The TV boys use him as a "source" and therefore seem to look the other way concerning his own questionable operation.
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2006-08-03/news/the-cult-of-ol e/
It may be that articles and news reports are all a senate investigation committee lawfully needs to conduct an investigation. Senator Grassley has investigated numerous non-profit organizations over the years - what sources did he rely on for these? It would be worthwhile to investigate this and to find out just what kinds of sources the senate can indeed use in order to conduct an investigation. For all we know, he may be well within his right. With regard to "They have to abide by tax laws just like any tax exempt group" - well, they do. There was no need for Feddie to twist this statement around. In the eyes of God, churches are special because they are doing His work, in the eyes of the law, they are just another tax-exempt group that needs to be closely watched - this investigation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the threat to religious freedom - it has everything to do with tax laws and ONLY that. Senator Grassley has repeated this over and over and over again . . . there is a difference.
And we can trust everything the senator says ... I hear the words, but the actions speak much louder. Throwing the group into a tabloid format as a kickoff before even contacting them. So, the first notice they get of the investigation is the press calling for their response to the press conference. Then feeding the media hounds juicy tidbits as he goes along. Where is due process? No wonder they are wanting the IRS in, with its privacy rules and no-leak restrictions. Many of these have passed recent IRS audits, no complaints, no resistance and got a clean bill. They have anyone's problem with being thrust into the environment Mr. G has whipped up. His staff told one of the six that they will publish what they get, everything except social security numbers - on third parties, donors. Something's up with this; it's different. That corrections may need to be made in the six - obviously. But if he has all this juicy stuff - the Volkswagen full according to one (himself sleazy) whistleblower - well, use it and get on with it.
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2006-08-03/news/the-cult-of-ol e/
If these Christian ministers were completely clean, there would be no reason for anyone to 'blow the whistle' - or at the very least, if these types of accusations were rare or occasional - it would give people reason to believe that there may not be any truth to what the whistleblower is saying - that the whistleblower is only trying to ruin the ministry's reputation for whatever reason, and since lies hold no water, the accusations would fade away and soon be forgotten - but the whistleblowing of these ministries (done many times by ministry insiders) has been consistent over the years - I don't know about you, but I would be very cautious of them, and I would welcome the investigation. I, for one, am glad the Senator and the media have opened my eyes to the possibility of their wrongdoing. Hopefully none of it is true, but we need to know, after all, our donations and tithings are an integral part to their success and could be playing a role in their wrongdoing.
You say: Many of these have passed recent IRS audits, no complaints, no resistance and got a clean bill. To which I would say - can we trust these ministries to have furnished ALL the information they needed to furnish to the IRS without 'fudging' the paperwork? Just as easily as you say 'can we trust everything the senator says', so as easily we can say 'can we trust that the ministries in question have not messed with the IRS in the past just so they can get a clean bill.
Post new comment